who is responsible for the London attacks?

[fela fan]

Not surprising given where you live - Shinawatra makes Blair look like a candidate for sainthood when it comes to dodginess...

Put him on another thread and i'll unhappily talk about him. But not for long at all mate i'm afraid.

 

[bigfish]

....did the egyptian guy really make the explosives in his bath or was it military explosive?

At first we were told the bombs were military-grade C4...

London explosives have military origin

LONDON, July 13 (UPI) -- Scotland Yard has asked for European cooperation in finding how last week's London subway and bus bombers obtained military plastic explosives.

Traces of the explosive known as C4 were found at all four blast sites, and The Times of London said Scotland Yard considers it vital to determine if they were part of a terrorist stockpile.

Then the French threw a spanner in the works...

Politics Intrudes in Bombing Inquiry, Deepening the French-British Rift

In the wake of the July 7 terrorist attacks in London, Scotland Yard brought together law enforcement and intelligence officials from two dozen European countries and the United States, sharing crucial intelligence and pleading for help in tracking down the bombers.

But the continentwide kumbaya was shattered when Christophe Chaboud, France's new antiterrorism coordinator, broke the cardinal rule of the club.

He leaked.

In an interview with Le Monde that appeared on the newsstands last Monday afternoon - two days after the exceptionally open briefing - Mr. Chaboud announced to the world that he knew "the nature of the explosives" used in the London bombings.

It "appears to be military, which is very worrisome," he said, adding: "We're more used to cells making homemade explosives from chemical substances. How did they get them? Either by trafficking, for example, in the Balkans, or they had someone on the inside who enabled them to get them out of a military base."

Next everything changed and the explosives were then claimed to be homemade...

British Police Say Bombs Used in Transport Attack Were Homemade

British police say they suspect the bombs that blew up on London's transport system last week were homemade from common household chemicals. The revelation comes as new reports say that police in Cairo arrested and are questioning an Egyptian biochemist sought in the probe into the London bombings.

Now the Met seem to be experiencing a hard to fathom delay in identifying the type of explosive used...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=356259&in_page_id=1770

Police are today still trying to establish the type of explosives used in the London bombings...

Forensic experts are scrutinising the four blast sites to determine the exact make-up of the substance and to see whether it can be linked to the home-made explosives found at a so-called "bomb factory" at a property in Leeds.

Early reports suggested the bombers had used a military plastic explosive during the attacks on the capital's transport network.

It was later claimed that police had found acetone peroxide - a highly volatile mixture also known as "Mother of Satan" or TATP - in a bath during a raid on a property in Leeds.

A security source said it appeared that home-made explosives had been found at an address in Leeds - thought to be a flat in Alexandra Grove in the Hyde Park area of the city.

However, the source said police were still carrying out tests to establish its exact make-up and to see whether there was any link to the substance used by the four London bombers.

So how hard is the identification process?

Trained forensics personnel using simple chemical tests and mass spectrographic analysis should not only be able to quickly identify the type of explosive, but even potentially tell how and where it was manufactured.

It is difficult to see how it would take more than a couple of days to be reasonably sure about this.

 

[editor]

Hold the front page!

Police in "not getting every single initial supposition 100% correct in the immediate aftermath of a unprecedented devastating bombing campaign" shocker!

 

[kyser_soze]

So you're now an expert on forensic analysis of bomb sites BF?

I've just been having a look-see to find out how one would go about analysing a bomb site for trace elements of the chemicals used in the bomb...found lots of people flogging kit but none on process...anyone else have any luck?

 

[laptop]

What the police actually (formally) said, as I recall it, is that they'd found TATP in Leeds and in the car at Luton.

One of the things about TATP is that there's very little residue to identify at the site of the explosion.

 

[editor]

One of the things about TATP is that there's very little residue to identify at the site of the explosion.

Indeed. They wheeled on some explosives expert on the BBC a few days ago who said that it's known as a very "clean" explosive because it leaves precious little trace.

 

[kyser_soze]

Well, that's even better and conclusively proves that it was a plot dunnit? Use explosives that are really hard to trace...only a government could come up with that wheeze!!

 

[laptop]

there's very little residue

To clarify: this is "very little" in the modern chemist's sense, which translates to "much much less than the fart of an underfed gnat" in English.

 

[kyser_soze]

To clarify: this is "very little" in the modern chemist's sense, which translates to "much much less than the fart of an underfed gnat" in English.

So I guess that the forensic teams are looking for atoms of this stuff then?

 

[laptop]

So I guess that the forensic teams are looking for atoms of this stuff then?

There won't be any TATP molecules left, and the products are acetone (v. volatile) and ozone (a gas). So: maybe for products of bizzare reactions on the surfaces of bits of the bomb. If that. (There are some quite suprisingly detailed papers about the forensics out there, none of them as I recall very hopeful: here I'm speculating about chemistry that someone might be doing but not have published.)

The point of the story is that they're looking for traces of other explosives, to see whether there were any. Which they'd have to do, for completeness. So it doesn't mean anything at all, until they find, or give up trying to find, such traces.

 

[editor]

The point of the story is that they're looking for traces of other explosives, to see whether there were any. Which they'd have to do, for completeness. So it doesn't mean anything at all, until they find, or give up trying to find, such traces.

So, it's yet another red herring from bigfish.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Most bomb detectors work on a "yep that blows up" basis, they can tell if there's a potential explosive but not what it is, (this is in large quantities by the way), false positives are a classic example of the limitations of bomb detectors. To find out what chemical it was you need to take it to a lab and run some serious tests on it.

For real trace amounts, god knows how long it'll take to identify definitivly

 

[Bob_the_lost]

So, it's yet another red herring from bigfish.

That part at least was utter shit yes.

 

[laptop]

That part at least was utter shit yes.

And I'm making an informed guess that the early announcement that they were thinking about commercial/military explosive was based on no more than an assessment of the engergy density (how much bang from how little material). They'd not thought of TATP yet; they'd ruled out the usual homemades like ANFO.

 

[bigfish]

And I'm making an informed guess that the early announcement that they were thinking about commercial/military explosive was based on no more than an assessment of the engergy density (how much bang from how little material). They'd not thought of TATP yet; they'd ruled out the usual homemades like ANFO.

We are ever so lucky to have an 'expert' of your calibre around to put us right.

Incidentally, why would "they [the Met] have not thought of TATP yet," when the type of explosive found in Richard Reed's shoe was identified as TATP?

Any idea?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

It's rare?

My GOD that was easy!

 

[oi2002]

We are ever so lucky to have an 'expert' of your calibre around to put us right.

Incidentally, why would "they [the Met] have not thought of TATP yet," when the type of explosive found in Richard Reed's shoe was identified as TATP?

Any idea?

Reids shoe bomb was plasticized PETN with an improvised TATP/Blackpowder detonator and it did not go off. Detecting TATP after the explosion is the tricky bit.

The forensics link in this post points to an interpol report. Even the Israelis who are used to the stuff have difficulty detecting it.

 

[laptop]

The forensics link in this post points to an interpol report. Even the Israelis who are used to the stuff have difficulty detecting it.

Ooh, a 404! Must be a secret | conspiracy !

Er: link without the space:

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Forensic/IFSS/meeting13/Reviews/Explosives.pdf

 

[oi2002]

Ooh, a 404! Must be a secret | conspiracy !

Er: link without the space:

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Forensic/IFSS/meeting13/Reviews/Explosives.pdf

Tres gentile.

 

[bigfish]

It's rare?

My GOD that was easy!

New Scientist

It is thought that part of the forensic investigation into the London blasts will include determining whether the TATP found at the house was of the same batch as that used by Reid, or if they were made independently.

 

[editor]

New Scientist

Is there a point to this?

 

[ernestolynch]

Some of the moslems at my workplace are adamant that the bombs were done by either the CIA or, bizarrely, the French. Work that one out.

 

[kyser_soze]

Some of the moslems at my workplace are adamant that the bombs were done by either the CIA or, bizarrely, the French. Work that one out.

The French one is easy - they bombed London the day after the Olympic bid decision.

In fact, several of my friends and I spent a couple of days trying to convince people of this...

 

[flimsier]

I've heard the French one a lot, stupidly. The Olympics and all that. Total bollocks.

 

[ernestolynch]

I've heard the French one a lot, stupidly. The Olympics and all that. Total bollocks.

It's been stated seriously by some of the islamick converts (black and white) - they must have been taught it in the mosks.

 

[kyser_soze]

I've heard the French one a lot, stupidly. The Olympics and all that. Total bollocks.

AKA 'humour'

 

[bigfish]

Did Greenspan Know about the London Bombings Two Days before?

The Blair-Bush-Greenspan cabal may not have known it was "bombs-away" for poor London, but it is apparent that they knew a lot more than they are letting on.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9528.htm

 

[laptop]

Bigfish, I was just saying on another thread that you're two hours late

What'd Bigfish say?

Did Bigfish mention Scientologists?

They arrived on the Hackey Road scene quite quicky. Of course I would never allege it was them. Oh no. Just that they're slimeballs for trying to exploit it. Honest.

 

[gabe2]

we canadians weep for u londoners....seems like the hens are coming home to roost

 

[nino_savatte]

The Blair-Bush-Greenspan cabal may not have known it was "bombs-away" for poor London, but it is apparent that they knew a lot more than they are letting on.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9528.htm

Is Greenspan the "Mr Big"?