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What Now for the BNP?

Quite right in part articul8, noone suggests that there aren't specific criminal gangs , who are Muslim in cultural background, who have engaged in criminal "grooming" of girls (and some boys) for prostitution purposes.

As usual you have got things back to front. What identifies the Muslim grooming gangs as different is that unlike in the white community, they are able to exploit entirely legal and otherwise above board existing business (taxi firms, fast-food outlets) and family contacts to create a client base, which is then extended to other areas, and other cities. It isn't in other words criminal activity that creates the network; it is not necessary to create a specific paedophile network, as might be found online say, any old common or garden network seems to do. In short it is the ability to easily access a network that creates the basis for the criminal activity, and makes it worthwhile.

And even though sexual abuse was rife in the Catholic Church, and was air-brushed by the authorities, it tended, (even though there were lots of them) to be down to predators working as individuals - lone wolves. Again the difference with the muslim grooming is that for the latter, there is evidence of group activity.

Which all points to a greater degree of tolerance/turning a blind eye to such activity within the Muslim community.
Which probably isn't that surprising considering the low regard in which Muslim women are held. And the even lower regard for women outside of the faith.
 
and how would you contextualise and address it in a way which undermines their ability to do it?

By establishing a track record of working on the broader range of issues - from housing to drugs, anti-social behaviour to libraries - which concern both muslims and other ethnic groups, and where class solidarity is required to defend and promote common interests. It's not enough to have a rhetorical commitment to such work, or a record of doing a little bit on another issue somewhere else a few years ago. It has to be done alongside, and ideally before, taking up issues of particular sensitivity to a minority ethnic community.
 
As usual you have got things back to front. What identifies the Muslim grooming gangs as different is that unlike in the white community, they are able to exploit entirely legal and otherwise above board existing business (taxi firms, fast-food outlets) and family contacts to create a client base, which is then extended to other areas, and other cities. It isn't in other words criminal activity that creates the network; it is not necessary to create a specific paedophile network, as might be found online say, any old common or garden network seems to do. In short it is the ability to easily access a network that creates the basis for the criminal activity, and makes it worthwhile.

This sounds like nonsense to me. How are Muslim paedophiles unable to exploit existing business and family contacts to further their paedophile in ways in which the "white community" are unable to. What is special about Muslim businesses that makes them more liable to infiltration by paedophile gangs?
 
This sounds like nonsense to me. How are Muslim paedophiles unable to exploit existing business and family contacts to further their paedophile in ways in which the "white community" are unable to. What is special about Muslim businesses that makes them more liable to infiltration by paedophile gangs?

That they don't have to be infiltrated by specially concieved gangs is the whole point.
 
By establishing a track record of working on the broader range of issues - from housing to drugs, anti-social behaviour to libraries - which concern both muslims and other ethnic groups, and where class solidarity is required to defend and promote common interests. It's not enough to have a rhetorical commitment to such work, or a record of doing a little bit on another issue somewhere else a few years ago. It has to be done alongside, and ideally before, taking up issues of particular sensitivity to a minority ethnic community.
and what of its peculiar senstitivity to, er, the majority ethnic community? seems to me you won't have much sway within either community if you steer clear of the tricky issues till it suits you.
 
That they don't have to be infiltrated by specially concieved gangs is the whole point.


No, i don't understand that either, are you saying that paedophilia naturally grows in Muslim communities in a way in which it doesn't in other communities?
 
I didn't say that you did, I pointed out that another hysterical poster trying to make similar points to you did, and that it was neither helpful nor accurate. So would appreciate you not following his example. And yes, I think you have done that by your response to the newton example and by who are directing these points at. You may not want to openly state it but the target is pretty clear. I will respond to the rest when not typing on phone.
Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!
 
No, i don't understand that either, are you saying that paedophilia naturally grows in Muslim communities in a way in which it doesn't in other communities?

No I'm not, and there's never been any evidence that I know of, that it does. The thing is as far as I can discern is that the actual ages of the females targetted are not the issue. It is in fact that the BNP who have labelled it paedophilia for the obvious return for them of a sort of double hit, though 'Muslim, suicide-bombing paedo's' would for them hit all the right places propaganda wise. But paedophilia to give it it's proper definition is a pathological attraction to pre-teens. Which is in the main not the priority for these groomers. For them the core criteria is that they a) have access to them and b) they are malleable.
 
Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!

Gore Vidal made be dead, but the art of the pithy put-down is alive and kicking. A star is born.

Dorothy Parker, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Noel Coward and Woody Allen, make room on that pantheon.
 
Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!

Gore Vidal made be dead, but the art of the pithy put-down is alive and kicking. A star is born.

Dorothy Parker, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Noel Coward and Woody Allen, make room on that pantheon.
Oh Gary do me a favour dearie........
 
Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!

Gore Vidal made be dead, but the art of the pithy put-down is alive and kicking. A star is born.

Dorothy Parker, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Noel Coward,Woody Allen and Sean Birchall make room on that pantheon.
 
What identifies the Muslim grooming gangs as different is that unlike in the white community....

The white community?

....they are able to exploit entirely legal and otherwise above board existing business (taxi firms, fast-food outlets) and family contacts to create a client base, which is then extended to other areas, and other cities.

A few years ago in Huddersfield there was a case similar to the Rochdale one, where predominantly muslim men had been involved in a peadophile ring. It was centred around a taxi firm, who would befriend and then groom young girls, often vulnerable and damaged, into being ferried around and dropped of to perform sexual favours. The "client base" of nonces using this service came from all sections of the community though, I think they were predominantly white, although Huddersfield's a predominantly white town so I wouldn't read anything into that.

In that instance those men being taxi-drivers, and the opportunity that brings to set up some ring like this, played a way more important then their religious idenity. That was marginal, but it was a factor. It's a pretty tight community, making it more difficult for police and social services to be able to shut it down, and I suppose that comes from being a religious minority in a profession where racist assaults are routine and even murders take place.

I think there's a similarity to Rochdale, speaking to people from there about the recent grooming case, and I'm lucky that I've got some asian friends from Rochdale who've got a decent insight into it, in their words these guys were more likely to be found in the pub than the mosque on a friday night, none of them were actively religious. It isn't seen as socially acceptable in the muslim community to do this. They preyed on predominantly white girls, firstly out of sheer opportunism, because they're the people you're most likely to come into contact with if you're a taxi driver doing 1am-5am in a grim nothern town, and partly because targeting muslim kids would risk word getting around that community that this was going on, and risking the whole operation getting exposed. It wasn't based on some religious conviction or a cultural belief, shared by the whole community, that it's ok to abuse non-muslim women, but their own self-preservation.

Now, this is where some of the left groups you've criticised go into denial, and refuse to acknowlege religion and cultural issues played any role at all in this, but I still don't see how it leads to conclusion the whole muslim community was deliberately turning a blind eye, and passively condoning these crimes.

And even though sexual abuse was rife in the Catholic Church, and was air-brushed by the authorities, it tended, (even though there were lots of them) to be down to predators working as individuals - lone wolves. Again the difference with the muslim grooming is that for the latter, there is evidence of group activity.

I don't think that's true at all, I've never bought this "lone wolves" shit about Catholic priests. Peadophilia was too systematic, too institutionally tolerated and lasted too long despite full knowledge it was going on, to be blithely written off as spate of lone wolves. They were in a position were they could abuse young people, just as a taxi driver who works 1am-5am in a provincial northern town might be, and so it was exploited. And I still wouldn't draw for that some of the conclusion you're prepared to make about Muslims.

Which all points to a greater degree of tolerance/turning a blind eye to such activity within the Muslim community.
Which probably isn't that surprising considering the low regard in which Muslim women are held. And the even lower regard for women outside of the faith.

I think you're on shaky ground here personally, trying ascribes to the motives of a small group of peadophiles to an entire religion. And I don't dispute for a moment that women are often held in low regard by some muslims either, or share the denial and naivety that some left-wingers have in talking about this.
 
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I don't think that's true at all, I've never bought this "lone wolves" shit about Catholic priests. Peadophilia was too systematic, too institutionally tolerated and lasted too long despite full knowledge it was going on, to be blithely written off as spate of lone wolves. They were in a position were they could abuse young people, just as a taxi driver who works 1am-5am in a provincial northern town might be, and so it was exploited. And I still wouldn't draw for that some of the conclusion you're prepared to make about Muslims.

First who is 'blithely writing anything off'? And where is the evidence of group attacks/collaboration by priests? All the evidence from case studies, witness affidavits, charges and convictions world wide, shows a pattern of behaviour that is entirely in the lone wolf category and thus different. Were the victims prostituted - sold to other churches for example? Oddly you seem to think that 'lone wolf' is in a less serious category.
Also, you seem to be confused with regard to the distinctions between taxi-drivers and priests. The latter have (or had) both power (of the church) and opportunity. Do Huddersfield taxi-drivers regularly ferry children around at 5 am? And if they do, what extraordinary power over them do they have? Or fast-food outlets for that matter? You also seem to suggest that anyone with the opportunity would naturally 'exploit' it in the same way? Really? Well, the conviction rate for this type of grooming under discussion says different.
 
Do Huddersfield taxi-drivers regularly ferry children around at 5 am? And if they do, what extraordinary power over them do they have?

Quick point, the "extraordinary power" comes from a process of grooming, slowly winning trust of vulnerable young people as a prelude to this type of exploitation. The rest follows after this grooming takes place.

Oddly you seem to think that 'lone wolf' is in a less serious category.

Nope, I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. And I still don't accept that peadophilia in the catholic church was simply unconnected individuals. But that's a different topic and not one I want to talk about.

You also seem to suggest that anyone with the opportunity would naturally 'exploit' it in the same way?

No, I suggest that paedophiles would exploit the opportunity to abuse kids if they present themselves, not just anyone. What a strange assumption to make, like abusing kids is just default activity that anyone would love to do if they ever got the chance. Weird.

Please try and keep your replies to things I've actually said in future, rather than things you've imagined I've said.
 
stromfront classic!
Yesterday was a most remarkable day!!! It was a very relaxed affair as we sat in the warm afternoon sunshine enjoying our drinks, from there we went to a friends house to enjoy the hostesses excellent English curry buffet whilst enjoying each other's company well into the evening - beats proper meetings any day
 
VNN perspicacity for once!

When the EDL first appeared Gri££in 'proscribed' them. He saw them as a threat to his income stream. As the BNP fell to bits Gri££in then tried to appeal to the EDL for more mugs he could fleece for donations. Didn't work. Now the the EDL and their new party, the BFP (who I think are a pile of shit), have publicly declared they want nothing to do with Gri££in so he goes on the attack. The Gri££in Family Business is losing members to the NF, BFP, and ED's hand over foot and this is Gri££ins last gasp at trying to prove he's a 'real nationalist'. He isn't. Gri££in is just another state protected con-man. What sort of cnut goes around yelling "BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH WORKERS" and then shafts Romac printers forcing them into liquidation and then getting the owner of said business jailed?
 
stromfront classic!
Yesterday was a most remarkable day!!! It was a very relaxed affair as we sat in the warm afternoon sunshine enjoying our drinks, from there we went to a friends house to enjoy the hostesses excellent English curry buffet whilst enjoying each other's company well into the evening - beats proper meetings any day
Lets hope the sight of Mo Farrah winning an Olympic gold medal for the UK made them choke on their 'excellent English curry buffet' :D
 
Yeah fair play. 10 out of 10 on the grammar. You ask where are the parallels between the discussion on grooming and the events in Newtown. What the issue of grooming, domestic violence within minority communities, (illustrated by 39th step) and the mugging epidemic in Newton have in common is of course the response of the liberal Left.
Essentially they turn a blind eye to the problem, and immediately cast aspersions on the people that confront them head on - either in theory or practise. Other areas considered verboten are forced marriages, female genital mutiliation and of course honour killings. So while these discussions are ostensibly about issues within the Muslim community, they are also about hypocrisy and contradictions and inadequacies within the Left, in either interacting with minority communities in a honest way or in dealing with the far-right with any degree of tactical acumen.

Another parallel is more personal. In a rather bizarre fashion you make the identical blunder as the critics of the IWCA in 1997 in alluding to the mugging issue being primarily, overwhelmingly, or exclusively 'a black problem'. In reality it was a Newtown problem. With perps and victims crossing the colour divide. Which is why the iWCA was able to tackle it head on in the way it did.
Obviously that must have been prior to the IWCA's turn to 'lumpen-Strasserism'. Or who knows maybe not?

Anyway top marks on the grammar - as for the rest - nil points.
Without wanting to seem too critical or argumentative many of the misogynistic characteristics you describe concerning southern asain Muslim communities is just as high if not more inherent in other communities of a similar ilk. Hindu caste system, propoerty relations in Panjab in relation to arranged marriages. As far as FGM is concerned it has more to do with tribal practices that crosses religous lines, Nigeria for example. Increase in grooming & prostitution and involvement is probably organised by Eastern Europeans as any other ethnic group & indigenous criminal groups have proved themselves to be just as insidious when it comes to child prostition.
Although I agree that openness and criticisim in this area and groups and individuals doing genuine not to the detriment or divisiveness of community as a whole,
to not realise that this is part of a campaign of Islamaphobia brought on by geo political interests just plays into the hands of racists.
 
The white community?



A few years ago in Huddersfield there was a case similar to the Rochdale one, where predominantly muslim men had been involved in a peadophile ring. It was centred around a taxi firm, who would befriend and then groom young girls, often vulnerable and damaged, into being ferried around and dropped of to perform sexual favours. The "client base" of nonces using this service came from all sections of the community though, I think they were predominantly white, although Huddersfield's a predominantly white town so I wouldn't read anything into that.

In that instance those men being taxi-drivers, and the opportunity that brings to set up some ring like this, played a way more important then their religious idenity. That was marginal, but it was a factor. It's a pretty tight community, making it more difficult for police and social services to be able to shut it down, and I suppose that comes from being a religious minority in a profession where racist assaults are routine and even murders take place.

I think there's a similarity to Rochdale, speaking to people from there about the recent grooming case, and I'm lucky that I've got some asian friends from Rochdale who've got a decent insight into it, in their words these guys were more likely to be found in the pub than the mosque on a friday night, none of them were actively religious. It isn't seen as socially acceptable in the muslim community to do this. They preyed on predominantly white girls, firstly out of sheer opportunism, because they're the people you're most likely to come into contact with if you're a taxi driver doing 1am-5am in a grim nothern town, and partly because targeting muslim kids would risk word getting around that community that this was going on, and risking the whole operation getting exposed. It wasn't based on some religious conviction or a cultural belief, shared by the whole community, that it's ok to abuse non-muslim women, but their own self-preservation.

Now, this is where some of the left groups you've criticised go into denial, and refuse to acknowlege religion and cultural issues played any role at all in this, but I still don't see how it leads to conclusion the whole muslim community was deliberately turning a blind eye, and passively condoning these crimes.



I don't think that's true at all, I've never bought this "lone wolves" shit about Catholic priests. Peadophilia was too systematic, too institutionally tolerated and lasted too long despite full knowledge it was going on, to be blithely written off as spate of lone wolves. They were in a position were they could abuse young people, just as a taxi driver who works 1am-5am in a provincial northern town might be, and so it was exploited. And I still wouldn't draw for that some of the conclusion you're prepared to make about Muslims.



I think you're on shaky ground here personally, trying ascribes to the motives of a small group of peadophiles to an entire religion. And I don't dispute for a moment that women are often held in low regard by some muslims either, or share the denial and naivety that some left-wingers have in talking about this.

This an important post Delroy Booth. You have IMO identified the very nasty subtext in so many of "Joe's" postings over years on the issue of "grooming " by gangs who are Muslims. He is systematically associating the crimes of a few criminals with some wider "cultural sickness" in the entire Muslim community. On the other hand he is completely unwilling to recognise that the Catholic Priesthood has long contained within its ranks a huge paedophile network of co-operating/mutually protecting, abusers .

There is no "cultural rights" defence against crimes against women like genital mutilation, forced marriage, domestic violence, or any other offence. There are however perfectly adequate laws which need to be enforced to deal with these crimes. There is a huge problem of domestic violence, child abuse, within the family,( and via paedophile rings), in the wider "white" community too of course, and the police fail dismally to tackle these broader societal problems too. Separating out just one ethnic/religious minority already under almost daily attack by bigots across the UK, for special attention for their supposed "special prediliction" to engage in crimes like "grooming", is not only selective nonsense, but simply panders to the obsessions of the natural support base of the BNP. How on earth does it deal with these problems in any useful way ?

Similarly to suggest that a group of local white bigots in a community campaigning against the right of their nearby fellow citizens to lawfully acquire a building as a religious centre, opens up any "radicalising potential" for "progressives", rather than fascists, is truly astonishing. It might open up opportunities for solidarity action in the local Muslim community for Left activists however, But that doesn't seem to be Joe or his friends' target group for political action. Yet not all Muslims are small business owners... many are simply workers, with the same relationship to capital as any white worker.

The Left should definitely reject any idea of "cultural specialness" that protects criminals from prosecution for breaking the law. The apparent long term "hands off" attitude of the police to the recently revealed "forced labour" practices in some Traveller Communities, being another possible example, But just as these problems don't justify demonising the entire Traveller community, so there is no excuse for falling in behind the BNP ,( possibly to appeal to their white bigot voter support base ?) in demonising the Muslim community.
 
The Left should definitely reject any idea of "cultural specialness" that protects criminals from prosecution for breaking the law.
i don't believe 'cultural specialness' is any sort of legal defence. could you show me a) a definition of 'cultural specialness' and b) someone who thinks it is a legal defence?
 
i don't believe 'cultural specialness' is any sort of legal defence. could you show me a) a definition of 'cultural specialness' and b) someone who thinks it is a legal defence?

For goodness sakes, Pickman's model,get a grip man... read my post a bit more carefully.....The "middle class" Left has been constantly accused by the IWCA of "turning a blind eye" to "sins" by the Muslim community because of , the IWCA contends, a mistaken view that "multiculturalism" provides a " get off behaving badly" card to minority cultural groups. The IWCA is not entirely alone in this view. The BNP obviously say it loudly, and there was a recent article in the Guardian, on the back of the recent "honour killing case" by a black Leftie again saying that too often the broad Left had turned a blind eye to "culture-based crimes" in minority communities. I agree with you that in fact NOONE with any sense on the Left actually thinks that the law should stand aside from dealing with crimes against women like genital mutilation and forced marriage, and I can find no evidence that this has ever been a significant position on the Left ... it is a Straw Man.
 
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