What Now for the BNP?

[intersol32]

The title sums it up. But I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on the current state of Griffin's party and its possible future? I happened to wade through Andrew Brons' BNP Ideas website (in particular his volumic essay on the current corruption in the parent body), covering last years debacle.

The issues seem endless, but mainly come back to the root suggestion that it's Griffin's cack-handedness which is causing the ship to leak. Also his ineptitude at handling the finances of the party along with the outight claims that he's on the fiddle. Placing 'favoured' associates in positions over that of ordinary party workers.* (see note)

The Question Time shuttle-crash (which Brons is particularly scathing about - and I agree, a six-year old could have batted those 'difficult' issues aside). Also, the Panorama documentary unveiling much of the above.

All added to this is their power dive from attaining over 55 council seats across the country, to now lest than half that. Plus the revelations that the majority of those elected rarely turned up to a council meeting anyway, and the rest deciding to drop the Party tag and go as Independents.

So, as everything from an outsiders view seems to be imploding in a horrible fantastic mess, will this illustrious crop of characters stay the course within the Party and mount a forceful resurgence (as Brons seemingly decided recently) or will everyone start drifting away to form/join other groups?

What temptation do other British fascist groups have for those now feeling the cold? Certainly no one else appears to have a clear or defined political programme that would be capable of recreating the same advances seen in the last years?

* (Note). It's hilarious that many BNP members are accusing Griffin of being "a dictator". I can just imagine one of them saying privately "well, y'know me and Kevin joined a Fascist organization...but what d'ya know, we suddenly realized it was being run...by a load of bloody Fascists!!!".

 

[frogwoman]

the bnp like the lib-dems seem to be a completely lost party, they don't seem to know what they want to be.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where have any discontented BNPers got, that they can go to, is the question. I'd contend that the EDL isn't a tenable option for many of them, and joining the NF might well seem too much like regressing to some pre-Griffin ideological soup of Euro-fascist and US racist gibbering, with the collected recordings of Hitler's Nuremburg rally speeches thrown in.

So, I can see life in a post-Griffin BNP, but then bad ideas often survive the idiots that think them up.

 

[SpineyNorman]

the bnp like the lib-dems seem to be a completely lost party, they don't seem to know what they want to be.

That's always been the case with the Lib Dems though - in fact I'd say before they got the opportunity to expose themselves in government it was their greatest strength - they were all things to all people, which enabled them to win the support and membership of people ranging from anti-war (mainly left wing) labourites to disgruntled Tories. It's only become a problem for them since they've been forced to take sides.

Edit: I guess you could say the same about the BNP - their support comes from groups ranging from working class old labour types seeking social protection, through Monday Club type tories, right up to hardcore old school Nazis. Although these tensions didn't ought to have been ramped up to the same degree as they have in the Lib Dems, since they've never had the opportunity to gain any kind of government power, and so haven't had to choose which group they should favour.

 

[intersol32]

Where have any discontented BNPers got, that they can go to, is the question. I'd contend that the EDL isn't a tenable option for many of them, and joining the NF might well seem too much like regressing to some pre-Griffin ideological soup of Euro-fascist and US racist gibbering, with the collected recordings of Hitler's Nuremburg rally speeches thrown in.

So, I can see life in a post-Griffin BNP, but then bad ideas often survive the idiots that think them up.

Yes, that's true about the EDL. Whereas they seem to attract plenty of the old BNP skinheads, along with C18 and B+H types, they're completely adrift politically. It's probably these culprits that are pushing for attacks on the Occupy protestors etc, in an attempt to give the group impetus. Especially now their numbers are getting smaller regarding the Anti-Islam marches. Plus even the EDL are falling out with each other, so I doubt if there's a major attraction there.

Going back to the NF would also be political suicide. First off there's too much baggage attached, plus any middle-class support would take to the hills. They all understand that there needs to be forward momentum. In fact I'm getting the distinct feeling that some of those members will start wandering back to the Tories and UKIP with their tails between their legs.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The BNP name still has a decent pull, far more so than any of the emerging electorally focused far right parties. And the conditions are still very good for the right, nothing tangible emerging from the left, I wouldn't discount the BNP pulling through from this despite the organisational chaos they are in.

 

[Ax^]

All depends on what the next 12 months bring to the economy,

Sadly it could favour these sorts of party's

 

[SpineyNorman]

So how many people has Griffin actually pissed off? Only if it's a big enough section of the committed activists I'd say he probably has to go before they can make any further progress. Obviously activists aren't the be all and end all but they're an essential ingredient for any successful campaign.

 

[intersol32]

The BNP name still has a decent pull, far more so than any of the emerging electorally focused far right parties. And the conditions are still very good for the right, nothing tangible emerging from the left, I wouldn't discount the BNP pulling through from this despite the organisational chaos they are in.

Fair point. Indeed the inability of anything challenging from the left is its eternal legacy - even faced with a financial crisis and the BNP falling apart. In fact they're unable to even admit they've been part of the problem all along: "Vote Labour with No Illusions" is still ringing in my head from the early 90's.

 

[intersol32]

So how many people has Griffin actually pissed off? Only if it's a big enough section of the committed activists I'd say he probably has to go before they can make any further progress. Obviously activists aren't the be all and end all but they're an essential ingredient for any successful campaign.

One thing I can't suss about the activist base is why, after working hard to get elected, did many of the councillors not bother putting in the hours at council meetings? Some of them even got exposed for defaulting on their council tax payments for christ's sake.

 

[SpineyNorman]

One thing I can't suss about the activist base is why, after working hard to get elected, did many of the councillors not bother putting in the hours at council meetings? Some of them even got exposed for defaulting on their council tax payments for christ's sake.

I find the argument that all far-right types are morons incredibly wrong headed but, with regards to these particular people, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. As you say, compared with the work that goes into getting elected turning up to meetings ought to be a doddle.

One possible explanation that just came to me - were these councillors picked because they were "clean" - less evidence of obviously facsist/nazi past or criminal convictions etc.? If so they may have only been a front and the more dedicated, but less electable, activists did all the leg work. And so the people who got elected were the least active/committed? Might be total bollocks, I have no idea - just a thought.

 

[intersol32]

I find the argument that all far-right types are morons incredibly wrong headed but, with regards to these particular people, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. As you say, compared with the work that goes into getting elected turning up to meetings ought to be a doddle.

One possible explanation that just came to me - were these councillors picked because they were "clean" - less evidence of obviously facsist/nazi past or criminal convictions etc.? If so they may have only been a front and the more dedicated, but less electable, activists did all the leg work. And so the people who got elected were the least active/committed? Might be total bollocks, I have no idea - just a thought.

Certainly sounds reasonable. I don't think many were vetted appropriately enough, as you say. If you watch the Panorama 'Secret Agent' episode from a few years back, the young undercover lad was only in them a few weeks before they'd asked him to stand as a candidate.

I get the feeling they tripped themselves up in the rush to get everything moving.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Lots of councillors are shit tbf, from all the parties and independents too. Lib dem cat killer for example, plenty of dealers, sex offenders, fraudsters etc from all of them. The threshold for selecting councillors often isn't very high.

The BNP do seem to have more than their fair share of completely inept and/or oddball councillors but I suppose they don't have a huge amount of choices about who stands - fairly small membership plus reluctance of many members to stand in elections equals we'll take anybody.

They've had effective ones too. That Alby Walker, the albino looking fella in Hanley, ex-poster boy of BNP councillors, he managed to build a strong reputation for community stuff before he fell out with the party and left.

That's the major obstacle for the BNP though isn't it - the loss of lots (most) of their activist base more than a loss of their electoral base?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Lots of councillors are shit tbf, from all the parties and independents too. Lib dem cat killer for example, plenty of dealers, sex offenders, fraudsters etc from all of them. The threshold for selecting councillors often isn't very high.

The BNP do seem to have more than their fair share of completely inept and/or oddball councillors but I suppose they don't have a huge amount of choices about who stands - fairly small membership plus reluctance of many members to stand in elections equals we'll take anybody.

They've had effective ones too. That Alby Walker, the albino looking fella in Hanley, ex-poster boy of BNP councillors, he managed to build a strong reputation for community stuff before he fell out with the party and left.

That's the major obstacle for the BNP though isn't it - the loss of lots (most) of their activist base more than a loss of their electoral base?

Yeah, and there's two ways I can see for them to possibly overcome that. 1) recruit and train a new layer of activists. Neither the recruitment nor the training is easy - activism is something you have to learn through experience IMO - it can't really be taught parrot fashion, and are the potential recruits even out there? or 2) Get rid of Griffin and those around him so that those he's pissed off can return. This seems to me to be the most sensible route for them to take, but I seem to remember someone telling me once that the BNP constitution designed to make this virtually impossible, unless Griffin goes willingly.

So are either of these even possible? If I were on the far right I'd be desperate to keep the BNP going - it's a well known brand, a kind of nucleus the hard right can unite around for elections among other things. If they lost that they could well end up as weak and divided as the far left - the state of which ought to be a warning to them. I think I'd be trying to work out how to get rid of Griffin - something that the more sensible characters like Brons are already doing.

 

[The39thStep]

Particularly ill infomed op. In what way was Question Time a shuttle crash? It was imo, and others who I spoke to, an unprecedented bullying exercise in which those resposible for the rise of the BNP ( with the partial exception of Greer) were allowed to get away with exorcsising the demons of the far right but bore no responsibilty for their success. The BNP had a quite ovewhelming number of enquiries following that programme.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

That's the major obstacle for the BNP though isn't it - the loss of lots (most) of their activist base more than a loss of their electoral base?

Yes.

I think it's impossible to guess where they're going to go this year, but I do agree with those who refuse to write them off.

The fact is there is a big pool of well over a million people prepared to vote for a credible far right party, and the BNP are the only ones to come near credibility any time recently, and they still have serious brand recognition among people who probably havent been following the ins and outs of all the internal shenanigans.

However on the other hand their activists are tired, pissed off, divided or have jumped ship or packed up and gone home altogether.

Could a change of leadership reinvigorate them? I suspect so, but I also don't see a white knight in the near distance, Brons is not it thats for sure.

Even without their activists they could probably still win in PR elections, which at the very least promises a half life of sorts.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Yeah from what I understand Griffin has control over pretty much everything in the party - although I note Brons' tendency has survived longer than any would in a far left party so he can't have it down that tight

But I agree that the far right needs to salvage the BNP brand. Can't see any of the new wave of electoral far right parties/platforms thriving, simply due to the proliferation of them, although who knows.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The alleged "mass" entry of disgruntled activists into the English Democrats is interesting as they do have a limited profile of sorts in certain areas, but I suspect that they will if anything pull it down on top of themselves rather than provide a boost, and I really don't see the likes of British Freedom (which I think I may be a member of lol) have any scope for growth except the growth of their leaders egos.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The alleged "mass" entry of disgruntled activists into the English Democrats is interesting as they do have a limited profile of sorts in certain areas, but I suspect that they will if anything pull it down on top of themselves rather than provide a boost, and I really don't see the likes of British Freedom (which I think I may be a member of lol) have any scope for growth except the growth of their leaders egos.

British Freedom look like piss and wind. How the fuck are you a member?

English Dems have a bit of traction I suppose, do they still have that mental mayor in Doncaster with the Tory son? UKIP will probably attract most of the disillusioned supporters won't they, if not the activists?

What impact will voters moving over to labour as an anti-coalition/cuts vote impact on the BNPs electoral support?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

British Freedom look like piss and wind. How the fuck are you a member?

I joined up online, before they were a proper party and for free, I still get the emails. Curiosity naturally.

I agree they're nowt, a glossy website with lots of cheesy stock images and a handful of egos and numpties.

It's £30 to join now so needless to say I don't think I'll bother.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I joined up online, before they were a proper party and for free, I still get the emails. Curiosity naturally.

I agree they're nowt, a glossy website with lots of cheesy stock images and a handful of egos and numpties.

It's £30 to join now so needless to say I don't think I'll bother.

You could stand in an election!

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah from what I understand Griffin has control over pretty much everything in the party - although I note Brons' tendency has survived longer than any would in a far left party so he can't have it down that tight

internal faction lol.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

You could stand in an election!

True.

*strokes chin*

 

[intersol32]

Particularly ill infomed op. In what way was Question Time a shuttle crash? It was imo, and others who I spoke to, an unprecedented bullying exercise in which those resposible for the rise of the BNP ( with the partial exception of Greer) were allowed to get away with exorcsising the demons of the far right but bore no responsibilty for their success. The BNP had a quite ovewhelming number of enquiries following that programme.

From an internal perspective it seems that many BNP members felt it was embarassing (Brons and his supporters partucularly). Publicly they claimed a rise in enquiries, but I'd question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up after the debacle. And that's another thing - it's not always about numbers, but the quality of those looking to join. It's no use if half of them are bat-shit mental.

Given the amount of viewers Question Time gets, even the "Campaign for the Pedestrianisation of Norwich City Center" would have got a "surge".

The question put to Griffin about sharing a platform with The Ku Klux Klan ilicited probably the most bizarre response of the evening: (Griffin) "Yes, but it was an entirely non-violent section of the Ku Klux Klan."

From a man who wrote the BNP Activists handbook, it was insane to seem him parroting the same words back to the interviewer. A better answer would have been "I often share a platform with those I don't agree with politically, as I am doing now" (turn to camera, slight smile, acknowledge rapturous applause from audience).

 

[SpineyNorman]

internal faction lol.

The "right platform"?

 

[The39thStep]

From an internal perspective it seems that many BNP members felt it was embarassing (Brons and his supporters partucularly). Publicly they claimed a rise in enquiries, but I'd question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up after the debacle. And that's another thing - it's not always about numbers, but the quality of those looking to join. It's no use if half of them are bat-shit mental.

Given the amount of viewers Question Time gets, even the "Campaign for the Pedestrianisation of Norwich City Center" would have got a "surge".

The question put to Griffin about sharing a platform with The Ku Klux Klan ilicited probably the most bizarre response of the evening: (Griffin) "Yes, but it was an entirely non-violent section of the Ku Klux Klan."

From a man who wrote the BNP Activists handbook, it was insane to seem him parroting the same words back to the interviewer. A better answer would have been "I often share a platform with those I don't agree with politically, as I am doing now" (turn to camera, slight smile, acknowledge rapturous applause from audience).

Why would half of those enquiring be any more bat shit mental than any one contacts any other political party. And whilst you might question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up so what ?The BNP is still bigger than any left party.

This is internet anti fascism at its most bizarre.

 

[The Black Hand]

Why would half of those enquiring be any more bat shit mental than any one contacts any other political party. And whilst you might question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up so what ?The BNP is still bigger than any left party.

This is internet anti fascism at its most bizarre.

BNP bigger than any left party? In terms of what? Members? But then you must differentiate between active members and non active. As far as I can see the BNP are doing nothing, the left parties have a larger profile. Around and Up here in the NE, once a hotbed, its completly flat for the BNP, they do nothing and have no profile, theres no discussion of them at all (in the papers/letters pages etc). The wider left (and @ as part of the left) is the opposition, despite itself and its lack of coherence - 10K of trade unionists and allies (de facto) on the streets in Toon on N30 2011 is the largest manifestation I have seen beyond the Miners Gala.

 

[love detective]

yep, everywhere I go people are talking about the left and their ideas

 

[butchersapron]

BNP bigger than any left party? In terms of what? Members? But then you must differentiate between active members and non active. As far as I can see the BNP are doing nothing, the left parties have a larger profile. Around and Up here in the NE, once a hotbed, its completly flat for the BNP, they do nothing and have no profile, theres no discussion of them at all (in the papers/letters pages etc). The wider left (and @ as part of the left) is the opposition, despite itself and its lack of coherence - 10K of trade unionists and allies (de facto) on the streets in Toon on N30 2011 is the largest manifestation I have seen beyond the Miners Gala.

And how many of these people would have been motivated by the same insecurities and concerns as people who might be sympathetic to the BNP or a number of policies (or were the exact same people even?) ? As far as i can see the only group who ever made any headway on these people electorally up there was the BNP. And as pointed out many many times on here now, 10 000 people out there demonstrating over their conditions isn't a clear endorsement of your incoherent left - it's anger and it's anger that there's very little reason to assume is being channeled unambiguously leftwards at the present time.

 

[butchersapron]

Immediate aims - organisational consolidation, re-uniting the central group around a series of leadership compromises (for now at least), keeping an eye on where and how any right-looking w/c responses to austerity etc manifest themselves, slow steady rebuilding of local electoral apparatus in the key areas, with a consequent testing out of the approaches suggested by the above - i expect in a more racially overt way (as part of one of the internal compromises), attempts to recruit any serious looking people from the EDL milieu. Eyes on the metropolitan unitary and district elections in may, so starting this stuff very soon. Unless of course, one of the demands raised against griffin that he has to agree to to be able to get into a position to get rid of the dissenters at a later date is less emphasis on elections this year - don't expect that though.

Not really much substantive merger/unity stuff that can take place with the rest of the far-right given the BNP have hoovered up the best activists for the last decade - burnout or disillusionment on the part of these people will probably mean retirement of one sort of another - either total or within the UKIP or tories.