what no annual poppy bunfight thread?

[Thimble Queen]

.

 

[dylanredefined]

Seriously. The idea that you could read these three statements:

"they gave our lives for us"
"they fought so we could be free"
"they did their duty"

And not see that they glorify war, that they glorify military service, that they are massively ideological statements about what war is for and what soldiers do, is just...

I disagree. It is just what they did hard to say it any other way. It is a service of remembrance. We have armed forces day as remembrance does not glorify the military if anything it kind of points out what the result of being in the military can lead to.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I disagree. It is just what they did hard to say it any other way. It is a service of remembrance. We have armed forces day as remembrance does not glorify the military if anything it kind of points out what the result of being in the military can lead to.

I'm not saying that remembrance isn't possible. I'm saying those specific statements are ideological and I've no idea how you can't see it.

 

[dylanredefined]

I'm not saying that remembrance isn't possible. I'm saying those specific statements are ideological and I've no idea how you can't see it.

They may well be I don't see anything wrong with using them.

 

[coley]

Seriously. The idea that you could read these three statements:

"they gave our lives for us"
"they fought so we could be free"
"they did their duty"

And not see that they glorify war, that they glorify military service, that they are massively ideological statements about what war is for and what soldiers do, is just...

I can read them and accept them for what they are, simple statements of fact, I do appreciate the fact, that thanks to these people, I can post on here without the fear of the secret police coming in and 'disappearing me'
The broader arguments re; capitalism,the The stupidity of Afghanistan/ Iraq, the vile hypocrisy of the establishment, etc,are fought daily on these boards, remembrance day is simply that, remembering those who died.
ETA, a comma.

 

[Lo Siento.]

They may well be I don't see anything wrong with using them.

You don't see anything wrong with casting the army as an institution that protects our freedom, dies for us, whose members do their duty by obeying orders?

 

[Lo Siento.]

I can read them and accept them for what they are, simple statements of fact, I do appreciate the fact, that thanks to these people, I can post on here without the fear of the secret police coming in and 'disappearing me'
The broader arguments re; capitalism,the The stupidity of Afghanistan/ Iraq, the vile hypocrisy of the establishment, etc,are fought daily on these boards, remembrance day is simply that, remembering those who died.
ETA, a comma.

"Simple statements of fact". Nothing simple about any of them.

 

[weltweit]

Lo Siento. do you object that I remember my father and his colleagues, and their friends who were killed and wounded, who protected Britain against the Nazis during WWII? Or do you object that I do this especially on rememberance day? Or do you object that they were in the armed forces?

 

[coley]

"Simple statements of fact". Nothing simple about any of them.

Only if you want to put them through some torturous idealogical mangle, which I suspect you wish to do?

 

[LiamO]

interesting article...

http://www.judecollins.com/2014/11/...-things-worth-thinking/#.VF-WuewoWyQ.facebook

 

[Lo Siento.]

Only if you want to put them through some torturous idealogical mangle, which I suspect you wish to do?

How's this for a "torturous ideological mangle". Apply them to any armed force that isn't the British Army and see how you feel about them.

Oh, and whilst we're at it, take them out of our remembrance services and ask yourself why it would be weird.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Lo Siento. do you object that I remember my father and his colleagues, and their friends who were killed and wounded, who protected Britain against the Nazis during WWII? Or do you object that I do this especially on rememberance day? Or do you object that they were in the armed forces?

None of the above.

 

[redsquirrel]

Lo Siento. do you object that I remember my father and his colleagues, and their friends who were killed and wounded, who protected Britain against the Nazis during WWII? Or do you object that I do this especially on rememberance day? Or do you object that they were in the armed forces?

Fucking hell, for once in your life read what people post. Absolutely nobody has said anything like the above.

 

[friedaweed]

Well done chaps. It usually kicks off a lot earlier than this and it looked like we'd gotten away with it tooo!

 

[redsquirrel]

Well I'm sorry but he does this all the fucking time, skipping over the points people make to post banal rubbish.

 

[weltweit]

Seriously. The idea that you could read these three statements:

"they gave our lives for us"
"they fought so we could be free"
"they did their duty"

And not see that they glorify war, that they glorify military service, that they are massively ideological statements about what war is for and what soldiers do, is just...

I don't have a problem with these three utterances, especially wrt WWII

You don't see anything wrong with casting the army as an institution that protects our freedom, dies for us, whose members do their duty by obeying orders?

In the case of WWII I don't no. Other wars like Afghanistan and Iraq I do.

How's this for a "torturous ideological mangle". Apply them to any armed force that isn't the British Army and see how you feel about them.

It depends on which armed forces and relating to which wars!

Oh, and whilst we're at it, take them out of our remembrance services and ask yourself why it would be weird.

Eh? You are saying our remembrance service would be weird without these statements? is that what you are saying? I think we could remember with or without these three sayings.

 

[weltweit]

Fucking hell, for once in your life read what people post. Absolutely nobody has said anything like the above.

Well I'm sorry but he does this all the fucking time, skipping over the points people make to post banal rubbish.

Two posts, zero content, well done you!

 

[coley]

How's this for a "torturous ideological mangle". Apply them to any armed force that isn't the British Army and see how you feel about them.

Oh, and whilst we're at it, take them out of our remembrance services and ask yourself why it would be weird.

Bit incongruous to apply them to invading armies attempting the permanent occupation and subjugation of their neighbours though?

 

[dylanredefined]

interesting article...

http://www.judecollins.com/2014/11/...-things-worth-thinking/#.VF-WuewoWyQ.facebook

Just the same old British hating pacifist bile. What about the Germans? Give me strength!

Oh change it to be more inclusive and less militaristic. It is about the loss in 2 world wars and to a lesser extent those killed in other wars.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Bit incongruous to apply them to invading armies attempting the permanent occupation and subjugation of their neighbours though?

Some introductions:

Coley, My Point.

My Point, Coley.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Bit incongruous to apply them to invading armies attempting the permanent occupation and subjugation of their neighbours though?

yeah, the British don't invade their neighbours generally. Well not any more. Henry V did. The British prefer to invade, occupy, and subjugate farther afield nowadays.

And to dylan, if the idea of commemorating the Germans who were sent to their slaughter in WW1 makes you puke, you rather make the article writer's point for him.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I don't have a problem with these three utterances, especially wrt WWII

(a) In your opinion does poppy day limit these statements solely to soldiers who participated in WW2?
(b) Even if you restrict those statements solely to WW2, do you not think that those statements omit as much as they contain?

In the case of WWII I don't no. Other wars like Afghanistan and Iraq I do.

See (a) above. That's the point with the state-sponsored poppy day, you don't get to choose. This is not an accident.

It depends on which armed forces and relating to which wars!

Exactly. It's not a neutral statement if it can only be applied to armed forces and wars that we deem politically acceptable. It's a political statement.

Eh? You are saying our remembrance service would be weird without these statements? is that what you are saying? I think we could remember with or without these three sayings.

Yes, a remembrance service in which the only statement was: "It was sad that they died" would be weird. How could it not be?

 

[Lo Siento.]

Just the same old British hating pacifist bile. What about the Germans? Give me strength!

Oh change it to be more inclusive and less militaristic. It is about the loss in 2 world wars and to a lesser extent those killed in other wars.

But's it's not about nationalism or militarism!!

 

[Greebo]

But's it's not about nationalism or militarism!!

Or, at least, it shouldn't be. The trouble is that for a conspicuous amount of people (just look at the media, your own relatives or work contacts) the wearing of a red poppy, taking part in Rememberance Sunday, and Armistice Day do seem to be excuses for the worst expressions of both, including a generous dose of "my country right or wrong".

 

[krtek a houby]

I have never worn one. Not my thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or, at least, it shouldn't be. The trouble is that for a conspicuous amount of people (just look at the media, your own relatives or work contacts) the wearing of a red poppy, taking part in Rememberance Sunday, and Armistice Day do seem to be excuses for the worst expressions of both, including a generous dose of "my country right or wrong".

It forms one part of the normalisation of a situation of permanent war. It's not an accident that remembrance season has been ramped up - military days at football matches, etc - during these times of permanent military action.

 

[frogwoman]

I have no problem with remembrance day but I don't like the way it is getting militarised. And I don't like the trends of for example Muslims being encouraged to wear poppy hijabs etc, it makes me feel really uncomfortable.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Tesco keeping it classy here:

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have no problem with remembrance day but I don't like the way it is getting militarised. And I don't like the trends of for example Muslims being encouraged to wear poppy hijabs etc, it makes me feel really uncomfortable.

It's vile, really. And that Daily Mail front page I linked to from Saturday, it is not a coincidence for them to have led on a failed terror plot the day before Remembrance Sunday - need to keep people on their toes and on-side for military action.

 

[LiamO]

Just the same old British hating pacifist bile. What about the Germans? Give me strength!

So the millions of German dead (military & civilians) deserved what they got? On account of them being Krauts and all?

Whereas all the Allied dead deserved to be remembered and commemorated because they weren't dastardly Germans?

Oh change it to be more inclusive and less militaristic. It is about the loss in 2 world wars...

But only the loss on 'our' side, yeah?

... and to a lesser extent those killed in other wars.

All those awkward, squalid, little colonial wars when britain played nasty Germany's designated role of foreign invader/oppressor?