Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
A friend said last night that there's no hell and heaven in Judaism and that there's no mention of either in the old testament. Is this true?
What does Judaism have to say about the afterlife?
- Thread starter Orang Utan
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There are different theories about it and if you ask loads of Jews you will come up with loads of different answers.
Basically speculation was always discouraged about the afterlife and who went to it, because the emphasis was on living a good life on earth rather than in heaven for it's own sake
funnily enough i went to a discussion group about whether non jews went to heaven a while ago, and some rabbis historically thought they didn't, and some thought they did, and the result of the rabbinical debate was that they did. the fact that it says "the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come" suggests that there is a world to come iyswim ... and of course there are loads of stories about what god or whoever will ask you in the next world, about whether you were honest and behaved well towards people, that sort of stuff, before you're let into heaven
hell isn't really mentioned and some people think that only jews would go to hell or heaven and non jews would just die with nothing after death, some people think that all non jews would go to hell, some people think that anyone could go to either place and some people think they dont exist ... it's certainly very scantily mentioned in the old testament and there is a place called "sheol" where souls of dead people were meant to go, that's like a kind of purgatory, in between heaven and hell but not much mention of either.
the heavens (shammaim) are assumed to exist i think, by most modern jews, with both jews and non jews able to go to them, although some jews think we all just die and then one day we will be resurrected to face the day of judgement (that's why some people don't like organ donations because our bodies won't be "whole" on the last day, lol)
also the concept of the world to come can refer to the messianic age or the time after the coming of moshiach or it can refer to life after death.
with hell, some people dont think that exists and there's just purgatory which everyone goes to for varying lengths of time before they are let into heaven, to cleanse themselves of their sins. The maximum length of time was meant to be something like a year, or three years, which doesn't really seem right when you consider what some people have done.
so basically it depends who you ask, personally i would say that there is a heaven and i think everyone can go to it whether they're jewish or not, i don't really believe in hell but i sometimes think that it would be good if there was a hell because of the way some people behave towards other people, i don't think someone like a paedophile, or someone like hitler or stalin or torquemada can be fit to go into heaven after just one year of purgatory, i think they deserve to suffer a lot longer than that.
basically though, your behaviour is always considered to be more important than your beliefs in judaism and there is more of a focus on what's happening on earth rather than in heaven, generally speaking, although it isn't always the case with some of the more extreme sects of judaism
Basically speculation was always discouraged about the afterlife and who went to it, because the emphasis was on living a good life on earth rather than in heaven for it's own sake
funnily enough i went to a discussion group about whether non jews went to heaven a while ago, and some rabbis historically thought they didn't, and some thought they did, and the result of the rabbinical debate was that they did. the fact that it says "the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come" suggests that there is a world to come iyswim ... and of course there are loads of stories about what god or whoever will ask you in the next world, about whether you were honest and behaved well towards people, that sort of stuff, before you're let into heaven
hell isn't really mentioned and some people think that only jews would go to hell or heaven and non jews would just die with nothing after death, some people think that all non jews would go to hell, some people think that anyone could go to either place and some people think they dont exist ... it's certainly very scantily mentioned in the old testament and there is a place called "sheol" where souls of dead people were meant to go, that's like a kind of purgatory, in between heaven and hell but not much mention of either.
the heavens (shammaim) are assumed to exist i think, by most modern jews, with both jews and non jews able to go to them, although some jews think we all just die and then one day we will be resurrected to face the day of judgement (that's why some people don't like organ donations because our bodies won't be "whole" on the last day, lol)
also the concept of the world to come can refer to the messianic age or the time after the coming of moshiach or it can refer to life after death.
with hell, some people dont think that exists and there's just purgatory which everyone goes to for varying lengths of time before they are let into heaven, to cleanse themselves of their sins. The maximum length of time was meant to be something like a year, or three years, which doesn't really seem right when you consider what some people have done.
so basically it depends who you ask, personally i would say that there is a heaven and i think everyone can go to it whether they're jewish or not, i don't really believe in hell but i sometimes think that it would be good if there was a hell because of the way some people behave towards other people, i don't think someone like a paedophile, or someone like hitler or stalin or torquemada can be fit to go into heaven after just one year of purgatory, i think they deserve to suffer a lot longer than that.
basically though, your behaviour is always considered to be more important than your beliefs in judaism and there is more of a focus on what's happening on earth rather than in heaven, generally speaking, although it isn't always the case with some of the more extreme sects of judaism
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
fattboy said:
Do you have a compulsion to talk shit on every thread you contribute to?
citydreams
on the road again
Orang Utan said:
that's cos it's in Hebew innit
Although Judaism concentrates on the importance of the Earthly world (Olam Ha'zeh — "this world"), all of classical Judaism posits an afterlife. Jewish tradition affirms that the human soul is immortal and thus survives the physical death of the body. The Hereafter is known as Olam Haba (the "world to come"), Gan Eden (the Heavenly "Garden of Eden", or Paradise) and Gehinom ("Purgatory").[5][6][7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olam_Haba#The_afterlife_and_olam_haba_.28the_.22world_to_come.22.29
Also:
The Mishnah (c. CE 200) lists belief in the resurrection as one of three essential beliefs necessary for a Jew to participate in it:
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Personally I'm sceptical about whether that will ever happen though, the requirement for it happening is that everyone (either everyone jewish, or everyone, period) works together to make the world a better place and works together to end poverty and such like, but personally i don't see it happening for thousands of years in reality, much as i'd like it to. i guess you just gotta have faith that some day some bunch of people will get it together to bring about the messianic age and just do what you can in your own life to make it more possible, otherwise it ain't gonna happen. 
It would be possible in theory to end war and everything like that and bring a perfect society about (which didn't involve killing anyone yourself, as efforts to make a perfect society usually do) but there are too many reasons why this can't happen now.
It would be possible in theory to end war and everything like that and bring a perfect society about (which didn't involve killing anyone yourself, as efforts to make a perfect society usually do) but there are too many reasons why this can't happen now.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I told you he was from Stormfrontfattboy said:
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
why have you got Who's the terrorist? as your tag line?fattboy said:
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Isn't that's a somewhat unfair question, being as theology is utter bollocks?Spion said:
Seems to me that the *only* way to judge a theological belief system is by its fruits -- by the moral compass it offers -- and by the standards of ethical behaviour, empathy and sympathy that it actually inculcates.
Spion
I hear ya
In the context of a thread that's asking questions of a central plank of theology, errr, no.Jonti said:
I agree theology is utter bollocks in terms of its relation to provable reality, which is why I find it hard to see someone who witters on about the nature of heaven and hell castigating someone else for their versions of it.
That's one way to judge it, but then you have to be very clear that you are judging it against your moral values and you have to justify and locate those socially and politically too, not simply accept that one is better than another because it looks a bit like commonly-held morals, political norms etc. Both Frogwoman's and Fattboy's beliefs are very much a reflection of what they are in social and political terms, I would guess. They've both found what they want to find, I think.Jonti said:
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Spion said:
Umm what the fuck?
i believe everyone can go to heaven and my opinion is shared by most people who follow this religion, i don't know whether it bears any resemblance to "reality", but given how I see god as a benevolent being, i fail to see how he would send someone to hell for not believing in exactly the right thing, i think that is somewhat more realistic than just thinking only a small number of people go to heaven simply by being born into a certain religion!
and i was trying to explain what different people have believed about this in history, i ain't trying to convert anyone, or say you're going to hell and shit like that, because i don't think you are ...
Spion
I hear ya
Yes, IMO, it's ridiculous to discuss who will go to heaven because it doesn't exist - it's just a facet of the religious 'world' that humans have created.frogwoman said:
My opinion is that religious belief is fundamentally externally incoherent - ie, what it says has no relation to the real world, that there is no god, afterlife etc. But, at the same time I find religion and spiritual belief a fascinating thing, especially with ref to the function and role they play in the wider political or social context.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
What does 'goy' mean to you, fattboy?
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