Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

[Pickman's model]

I had hoped this kind of dishonest bigotry wasn't still tolerated here. Was I wrong then?

Co-op's been vomiting bile about this for years

 

[redsquirrel]

Lol multiple polls on "Isla" Bryson but I don't want to burst your bubble by linking to actual data. Dream on.

The data indicates a majority in favour of making it easier to get a GRC
And while it is much more split once you get into the details there is still significant support for the proposals and a lot of unsures

There are two obvious points about our attitude as a society on transgender men and women.
The first is that we are pretty evenly divided on many of the arguments we are having such as whether to make it easier for trans people to register legally their gender. And whether or not they should be able to use toilets of the gender to which they identify.
The second is that quite a lot of us are still not really very sure about where we stand on this issue.
On many of the questions in this poll we have got between a fifth and a third of people saying they are frankly not sure, don't know, neither agree nor disagree with either option.
In contrast to the online debate, which is undoubtedly deeply polarised, the general public are not particularly sure and only about a third are following the issue closely.

It's a far less clear cut picture than huge opposition (or support) for these measures.

 

[Santino]

but we don't design prisons or any part of society on the basis that everyone in a given population is a predator.

We sort of do though. Why are there women's prisons in the first place?

 

[Brainaddict]

We sort of do though. Why are there women's prisons in the first place?

To punish people for petty theft, sex work, minor fraud, fighting back against abusive partners and the like. A few actual sexual predators might also end up there. A few of them are women who prey on women. What does the prison system do with them? I don't know, but I'm sure they have methods to protect the wider prison population. Which they can also use for the vanishingly small number of trans women whose history shows they might prey on women. Meanwhile I wonder if co-op thinks about the fate of trans women in men's prisons.

 

[Santino]

To punish people for petty theft, sex work, minor fraud, fighting back against abusive partners and the like. A few actual sexual predators might also end up there. A few of them are women who prey on women. What does the prison system do with them? I don't know, but I'm sure they have methods to protect the wider prison popuulation. Which they can also use for the vanishingly small number of trans women whose history shows they might prey on women.

Why aren't all prisons mixed sex?

 

[Brainaddict]

Why aren't all prisons mixed sex?

I'm not going to get involved in an argument the basis of which seems to be you wanting to say that trans women and men are the same. It also doesn't seem worth arguing with someone who has spent years on fairly anarchist boards but seems to have no idea of the purpose of prisons, or drops any knowledge about what they are and do in order to try to win an argument. Stop it.

 

[Santino]

I'm not going to get involved in an argument the basis of which seems to be you wanting to say that trans women and men are the same. It also doesn't seem worth arguing with someone who has spent years on fairly anarchist boards but seems to have no idea of the purpose of prisons, or drops any knowledge about what they are and do in order to try to win an argument. Stop it.

You seem to be tying yourself in knots to avoid acknowledging that society is organised in part to protect some groups from other groups, even where the vast majority of the latter may pose no threat to the former. You don't help anyone by ignoring pretty basic facts like that.

 

[JTG]

It's not really tolerated, it's called out for what it is by pretty much everyone.

Co-op's been vomiting bile about this for years

Thanks. One of the reasons I've avoided extended stays here were certain threads in which long term posters sharing frankly awful views appeared to be tolerated. I am heartened that this isn't the case now.

 

[JTG]

Anyway, sorry for minor derail and I'd humbly suggest that we also drop the prisons discussion given that this has absolutely nothing to do with the GRR in Scotland and the only reason it is being brought up is to yet again conflate trans people with sex offenders.

 

[co-op]

Thanks. One of the reasons I've avoided extended stays here were certain threads in which long term posters sharing frankly awful views appeared to be tolerated. I am heartened that this isn't the case now.

I know you don't like my views on this issue but you should know that pickman's has had the raving hump me for years since I pulled him up over a (relatively trivial and probably unaware) anti-semitic post he made. He's not "supporting you" he's just grinding an axe over ancient beef with me.

 

[co-op]

Anyway, sorry for minor derail and I'd humbly suggest that we also drop the prisons discussion given that this has absolutely nothing to do with the GRR in Scotland and the only reason it is being brought up is to yet again conflate trans people with sex offenders.

This is untrue. Sturgeon's intervention in the Bryson case is directly relevant to the whole s.35 debate and undermines almost her entire position of years standing. Scots - by a 59% to 15% margin - oppose placing rapists with male genitals in female prisons, regardless of whether they identify as women or not and I guess this is why NS is suddenly tacking off in a new direction. But posters upthread were lauding her mad political skillz at luring Westminster into a beartrap when in fact it looks a lot more like she's blundered into one of her own making.

 

[co-op]

Should transgender women offenders be sent to men’s or women’s prison? | YouGov

It makes more of a difference to Britons’ views whether or not a prisoner has had ‘full’ gender reassignment surgery than what kind of crime they committed

yougov.co.uk

And while looking for that poll ^^, I found this one Poll shows slump in support for SNP and Scottish independence

which pretty much supports what I said upthread.

 

[Sweet FA]

I had hoped this kind of dishonest bigotry wasn't still tolerated here. Was I wrong then?

co-op is a transphobic turd who spouts this shit on various threads. They get called on it but they're pretty obsessed.

 

[Dystopiary]

There's a sudden concern for women prisoners not normally seen; of course these same people have little or nothing to say about those women's rights most of the time: the abuse - sexual and otherwise - the grim statistics involving poverty and mental health issues. Just another point-scoring exercise in demonising trans people.

 

[co-op]

co-op is a transphobic turd who spouts this shit on various threads. They get called on it but they're pretty obsessed.

I'm talking about s.35 and whether or not the Scottish people support the issue that Sturgeon has chosen to fight it on. It looks pretty clear that the evidence is that they oppose her and by quite large margins. I'm literally pointing this out. It's not me that's "transphobic" it's the Scottish people, you should address your abuse to them, I'm sure it'll be really persuasive.

 

[Athos]

Sturgeon has tied herself in knots. She said that she doesn't think Isla Bryson is a woman, despite that being how Byson claims to self-identify; that's at odds with her position over the years, and the central point of the legislation that she championed. She'd have been better off simply saying that if Bryson identifies as a woman she should be treated as a woman, but that doesn't mean she should be put in a woman's prison - there's provision in the legislation to exclude trans women from single-sex spaces where they represent a risk to women, as a double rapist clearly does.

 

[JimW]

I'm talking about s.35 and whether or not the Scottish people support the issue that Sturgeon has chosen to fight it on. It looks pretty clear that the evidence is that they oppose her and by quite large margins. I'm literally pointing this out. It's not me that's "transphobic" it's the Scottish people, you should address your abuse to them, I'm sure it'll be really persuasive.

Setting all that aside, the timeline doesn't support your version of events. The bill in question has been years in the making, hasn't it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sturgeon has tied herself in knots. She said that she doesn't think Isla Bryson is a woman, despite that being how Byson claims to self-identify; that's at odds with her position over the years, and the central point of the legislation that she championed. She'd have been better off simply saying that if Bryson identifies as a woman she should be treated as a woman, but that doesn't mean she should be put in a woman's prison - there's provision in the legislation to exclude trans women from single-sex spaces where they represent a risk to women, as a double rapist clearly does.

What does 'treated as a woman' mean, though, beyond things like what prison you're sent to? Except where there is sex segregation, how is it to be 'treated as a woman'?

 

[steeplejack]

Lol multiple polls on "Isla" Bryson but I don't want to burst your bubble by linking to actual data. Dream on.

"I can't be arsed to supply evidence of my prejudice"

 

[Athos]

What does 'treated as a woman' mean, though, beyond things like what prison you're sent to? Except where there is sex segregation, how is it to be 'treated as a woman'?

It's a range of things, including e.g. being referred to by the appropriate pronouns.

 

[JimW]

Would it also be different uniforms, educational offerings and general regime etc.?

 

[Raheem]

Opinions on Scottish independence can change over time, of course, but I don't think many Scots are changing their minds on a weekly basis depending on what's in the news.

In January, it was reported that support for independence had jumped above 50% because people backed the Scottish government over the Gender Recognition Act. In February, support drops back below 50% and we are told this is because people oppose the Scottish government over the Gender Recognition Act.

It could be that Scots go around not knowing what their opinions will be from one moment to the text, but I think it is more likely that the January poll was an outlier.

 

[Red Cat]

we don't design prisons or any part of society on the basis that everyone in a given population is a predator. That would lead to an extremely paranoid world in which we constantly live in fear of each other. Instead we try to isolate those few who are predators and protect people from them - however they identify.

Safeguarding practice involves imagining the worst case scenario, that's literally how it works. You know, like because I work in the NHS I have to have a DBS check because I might be a predator. The worst is assumed and then I have to provide evidence that I've never been convicted.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Would it also be different uniforms, educational offerings and general regime etc.?

Would be best to move away from situations in which gender stereotypes are forced on people, mind you.

 

[steeplejack]

Oh look, a recent poll suggests 54% now favour independence after s.35 imbroglio

The reality I live in (quite happy to accept personal anecdote is not universally representative and that other realities are available) is that the vast majority of Scots couldn't give a shiny shite about GRR. The laws make the lives of a small minority of people much better, with the core of opposition to them consisting of Tory gender essentialists, transphobic bigots, "Alba". the Official Alex Salmond Fan Club, and the kinds of weird poorly socialised people who have become trapped in an upturned algorithmic jar of angry prejudice since Covid.

What people can give a shite about is that legislation which took five years to pass and did so with cross-party support across Holyrood is overturned by a measure never used in quarter of a century to, well, thwart that democratic process on the basis of prejudice and as a very cynical ploy to drive a culture war wedge in the Scottish peope ahead of a general election in which the Tory Party is expected to be annihilated. "Secretary of State" Alister Jack, a minor character from a novel by Mrs Humphry Ward, can't explain the reasoning behind the decision, just issues clouds of verbal octopus ink and prejudiced dogwhistles in lieu of an argument. That far-right wing rags like the Daily Express and the Daily Mail are talking up NEGATIVE APPROVAL RATINGS FOR STURGEON and SCOTS AGREE WITH WESTMINSTER based on a straw poll of the Daily Mail hacks in the office, is neither here nor there. They would say that is Westminster stopped Sturgeon making all the beer in the pubs north of the border free.

People who aren't strangers to reason are able to distinguish between welcome legislation that makes the trans community's lives better; and the many, many reasons why the SNP is clapped out and would fall if there was an opposition worthy of the name. People vote for the SNP because they project an image of competence (although it has been quite some time since that image has actually equated with reality) and the opposition parties are an absolute joke- wee Dougie the racist linesman and his gaggle of charity shop politicians from forty years ago, biscuit-ersed Anas, the latest branch manager, waiting for the latest right-of-centre-line-to-take from London, I think there used to be Liberals but no one cares about them anymore. The SNP are in hock to corporate lobbyists in Charlotte Street; have talked left and acted right for at least the last two parliamentary cycles; have backtracked shiftily on left wing measures (publically owned energy company, bargain basement sale of the North Sea floor to energy companies) and control ruthlessly the party machine so that the radical instincts of a section of the grasroots membership are curbed. The SNP have been in power since 2007 (outright majority since 2011) and people are simply tired of them but stuck with them.

I haven't voted for the SNP for quite a while now and hold no particular love for Nicola Sturgeon or her uber-cautious managerial style. If you actually understand Scottish politics you'll realise there is no chance of an independence referendum anytime soon and whilst the SNP make a lot of noise to keep their grassroots on side, realises that it has no route to independence, nor the prospectus to fight one even if a route magically opened up. The time where such a platform- paying particualr attention to central banking, a position on currency, etc, has been squandered in favour of day-to-day managerialism. That's not to say the SNP don't actually want independence; they are by instinct centrists and pragmatists at leadership level and privately recognise that a legally binding referendum is a long way off.

All of this nuance and detail has precisely fuck all to do with the Gender Reform laws and the difficult decision faced by ministers in dealing with a vanishingly small number of trans prisoners who want to serve time in womens' jails. That far right rangs are whipping this up and using it as a stick to beat someone that they utterly detest with, is obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

 

[smokedout]

There's a sudden concern for women prisoners not normally seen; of course these same people have little or nothing to say about those women's rights most of the time: the abuse - sexual and otherwise - the grim statistics involving poverty and mental health issues. Just another point-scoring exercise in demonising trans people.

2 days ago a report was released following an unannounced inspection of Eastword Park women's prison in Gloucestershire. The prison was rated the lowest possible grade for safety, something the inspectors says is very unusual for a women's prison. Conditions sounded appalling - the worst ever seen according to one inspector. https://www.justiceinspectorates.go...ds/sites/4/2023/02/Eastwood-Park-web-2022.pdf

The treatment and conditions of women located on houseblock 4 were
described by one experienced inspector as the worst that he had seen. The
criteria for why women were sent to the unit were unclear and its role was not
properly established or overseen. In effect it housed, in segregation, women
who could not be placed elsewhere in the jail, due to their mental health needs
or associated behaviour. The cells were appalling, dilapidated and covered in
graffiti, one was blood-splattered, and some had extensive scratches on the
walls which reflected the degree of trauma previous residents must have
experienced. No prisoner should be held in such conditions, let alone women
who were acutely unwell and in great distress. I was also deeply concerned
about the welfare of the staff who worked there; they were dedicated and
courageous, but were not adequately trained or qualified to support the women
on the unit. They received no clinical supervision, despite being exposed to
prisoners in great distress, some of whose levels of self-harm were extreme.
Specialist input from others had dropped off over time and the therapeutic ethos
had simply disappeared. Neither the leadership team nor, in their recent visits,
the prison group director’s staff, had noticed the severity of this situation.

I haven't seen one prominent Gender Critical person mention this despite them all tweeting furiously about women's prisons for the last week. Not even Keep Prisons Single Sex, the Gender Critical campaign group. They don't give a shit about women in prison, it's just a bunch of middle class people using prisoners to pursue their own agenda without a thought for the problems really facing women in prison.

 

[co-op]

"I can't be arsed to supply evidence of my prejudice"

"I can't be bothered to read the thread and find the poll evidence that's been posted"

 

[co-op]

Oh look, a recent poll suggests 54% now favour independence after s.35 imbroglio

That poll was from 2 weeks the one showing the opposite was from yesterday.

This indicates that there is a really good row here for the SNP to fight - s.35 is fundamental to the issue of Scottish sovereignty and the first poll indicates that a fight on issue has the ability to push people towards pro-Indy.

And yet the second poll shows the opposite. What changed between the two? What issue has dominated the news cycle in Scotland since then?

You can wail about the cynicism of the media and the tory establishment if you like but it looks a lot to me like they know exactly where to push the button, and when and Sturgeon's left herself up shit creek. What happened to self-ID? Isla Bryson identifies as a woman, that should be the end of it. Why did NS suddenly U turn?

Alternatively you can laud her as a slick politician who's caught Westminster in a trap, as people (including you) were upthread. Doesn't look like that to me.

 

[danny la rouge]

Christ, you really are monomaniacal.

 

[Athos]

Christ, you really are monomaniacal.

Indeed. Note the tagline.