Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

[steeplejack]

I would not be surprised if Sturgeon engineered this to draw attention away from government failures in health, education, transport and of course £200m on over budget ferries.

Incidentally, why would you trust a party whose finances are in such a shambles that Murrell (and possibly Sturgeon) had to lend them over £100k?

Yes a five year consultation and multiple drafting / debate stages of complex legislation which ended up with cross party support clearly had only one aim- to cover up government failures.

 

[JTG]

Yes a five year consultation and multiple drafting / debate stages of complex legislation which ended up with cross party support clearly had only one aim- to cover up government failures.

Especially when at the outset of the process it was literally part of UK government policy to move towards the same goal

 

[steeplejack]

Beyond that, it's hard to read this as anything other than a naked attack on devolution by a UK government which thinks it can benefit politically and from various gammons by opposing the GRR bill. Sewing division on a culture war issue eighteen months out from a general election.

Given that the challenge is being launched by someone as dense and monomanic as the "Secretary of State for Scotland", the minister for the eighteenth century, Alister Jack, I think this S35 has a good chance of failing in the courts. Sunak seems to me to be holding his hands up with a "not me guv" look and holding Jack's foosty, pungent Harris Tweed blazer as the battle begins.

It's a dumb battle for the UK government to have picked and I think whatever the outcome it will play badly for them. Someone as politically astute as Sturgeon will be able to play this to her advantage very effectively. Hilarious to see clownshoes Keir being denounced all over the internet by LGBTQ+ groups, activists, and his own party members, for his remarkably hamfisted "genuine concerns" intervention the other day. This latest disastrous mis-step ensures that Labour will once again flatline north of the border in the 2024 GE. After all if you want intolerant right wing politics, NHS privatisation, military-patriotic Union jack fetishism, and a unified UK state why would you vote for the pale imitation when you can vote Tory? It's astonishing that Labour are so utterly tone deaf up here. There's one or two good people in the Labour ranks in Holyrood and surprisingly I feel slightly sorry for them given Sarwar's embarrassed silence on thie issue and their being hung out to dry by a pathetic right wing London leadership.

Jack's case against the GRR legislation is full of cynical lies and canards that have been debunked multiple times. It's legislation which draws Scotland into a mainstream alongside many other countries whose Gender Recognition Certificates the UK government continues to acknowledge. All it aims to do is make the lives of a small number of folk better and easier. This S35 game started by Jack denies trans folk that easier life, an absolute disgrace.

Beyond that, I wish the Tories and the SNP would just get to fuck. I'm sick of them all tbh. A plague on all their houses.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

you didn't know. Lots of us weren't sure about all kinds of questions around sex, sexuality, gender and identities at that age. But a, fairly small, number of young people have been living their lives and do know what they need, why should they be put through another two years of shit?

Exactly!! - a lot of people act like allowing choice for 16 year olds means its compulsory to make an active choice. But if you don't feel strongly that you are living in the wrong gender then it just does not affect you in any possible way.

And i think that the fact that trans people have been driven out of this 'debate' (I do not mean on Urban 75, I mean more broadly) means cis people are more likely to think in these terms.

 

[Athos]

The Statement of Reasons is pretty weak. But I think the SoS still has a good chance, because of the very limited grounds upon which JR can be sought. It's not simply a matter of the court deciding whether, on balance, the decision was a good one; the bar is much higher. On the assumption that the decision wasn't illegal (e.g. made by someone who didn't have the power), procedurally unfair (e.g. failed to give reasons), or doesn't meet legitimate expectations (e.g. in breach of a promise to act a certain way), then it could only be held unlawful on the grounds of irrationality. There's something called Wednesbury unreasonableness, which effectively means a decision must be so bad that no sensible person could've taken it.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Beyond that, I wish the Tories and the SNP would just get to fuck. I'm sick of them all tbh. A plague on all their houses.

If I have to choose a UK political party, I'm quite happy to get behind the SNP/Scottish Greens. Streets ahead of the Tories (obviously) and anything Labour are likely to be in the foreseeable future. I'd be really fucked off if I lived south of the border...

 

[hitmouse]

Updated list of demos this weekend:
On Saturday 21st we have:
Glasgow - Rally For Trans Equality - Link
Leeds - Defend Trans Lives - Link
London - Trans Rights Protest - Link
Dundee - Dundee Rally For Trans Rights - Link
Dublin - Scottish GRA Blocked: Stop The Right-Wing Backlash - Link

On Sunday 22nd we have:
York - Rally For Trans* Liberation - Link
Bristol - Trans Liberation Is Our Liberation - Link
Nottingham - GRC Reform Block Protest - Link
Think they're all collected here as well: Stonewall Was A Riot

 

[danny la rouge]

“Majority of Scots 'now favour independence' after Section 35 devolution row


Research suggested 54% backed Scotland leaving the UK, with 46% in favour of remaining, reversing the trend of another recent poll”

Majority of Scots 'now favour independence' after Section 35 devolution row

Research suggested 54% backed Scotland leaving the UK, with 46% in favour of remaining, reversing the trend of another recent poll.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

 

[geminisnake]

54% is fecking pathetic considering. It should be way higher, people are really ok with Tory sleaze and corruption, killing off the NHS, covid deaths, high energy prices, sanction deaths...................., really?

 

[steeplejack]

Yep agree sadly. All the factors you list there are suppressants of a second vote just as much as stimulators of one. People are just trying to survive and sick and tired of big events / big political decisions.

 

[smokedout]

Pretty sure it's fair to call this a strongly worded letter: Gender recognition: letter to the Secretary of State for Scotland

Your letter provided scant detail on the reasons for the order, and like everyone else we had to wait until publication late on Tuesday afternoon of your policy statement to see any substantive explanation. We will respond in full to the points raised in the appropriate forum which, given the approach taken by the UK Government, is now likely to be through the courts.


My immediate concern, however, is to clarify contradictions in your letter and statement.


You have said that you hope we can work together to find a constructive way forward which respects devolution and the operation of UK legislation. This seems utterly incompatible with your approach of waiting until after the Bill has been passed to implement a power of veto never used before, with no warning communicated about the use of that power or prior attempt to engage on the detailed issues now raised. Please would you clarify how the Scottish Government can work constructively with you under these circumstances.

Now it seems that both Kemi Badenoch and Alistair Jack are refusing to meet with Holyrood to justify the decision or work to a solution. Looks like this was either a hastily decided fuck up that no-one wants to own or a calculated ambush and snub to the Scottish Government.

 

[steeplejack]

. Looks like this was either a hastily decided fuck up that no-one wants to own or a calculated ambush and snub to the Scottish Government.

I think it's probably both

 

[Leighsw2]

All very grim, but I do hope that Scottish 'Labour' are now totally and completely fucked because of this. 'Branch office' indeed!

Paul

 

[co-op]

It's a dumb battle for the UK government to have picked and I think whatever the outcome it will play badly for them. Someone as politically astute as Sturgeon will be able to play this to her advantage very effectively.

If you really think this you are delusional. Of all the issues that Sturgeon could have stirred up to provoke a s.35 battle, she's managed to blunder onto the one where the clear majority of Scots agree with Westminster. She's spent so long listening to the sanctimonious and idiotic arse-kissers who surround her she's lost touch.

It almost makes me start to take seriously the out-there indy conspiracists who argue that she doesn't want independence at all.

 

[steeplejack]

Don’t think I’m ‘delusional’ at all & don’t think there’s any evidence that ‘the Scottish people agree with Westminster’ on the issue but thanks a lot for your valuable feedback x

 

[co-op]

Don’t think I’m ‘delusional’ at all & don’t think there’s any evidence that ‘the Scottish people agree with Westminster’ on the issue but thanks a lot for your valuable feedback x

Lol multiple polls on "Isla" Bryson but I don't want to burst your bubble by linking to actual data. Dream on.

 

[krtek a houby]

If you really think this you are delusional. Of all the issues that Sturgeon could have stirred up to provoke a s.35 battle, she's managed to blunder onto the one where the clear majority of Scots agree with Westminster. She's spent so long listening to the sanctimonious and idiotic arse-kissers who surround her she's lost touch.

It almost makes me start to take seriously the out-there indy conspiracists who argue that she doesn't want independence at all.

How does gender recognition affect you, personally? You can have both independence and the gr law.

 

[co-op]

You can have both independence and the gr law.

Of course you can but if you choose to make your big independence battle over putting male rapists into women's prisons then you're not going to get many people following you. And if you suddenly decide that maybe some transwomen actually aren't women because they are self-IDing for personal advantage after spending years saying anyone who said that might happen is a "transphobe" you just look like a fecking idiot. Which is precisely what Nicola Sturgeon looks like now. And this is the s.35 battle she's picked. And which clowns on this thread think is 'Westminster falling into a trap'. You're all delusional.

 

[steeplejack]

I think the lens of the telescope you have pointing at Scotland needs a wee wipe.

 

[krtek a houby]

Of course you can but if you choose to make your big independence battle over putting male rapists into women's prisons then you're not going to get many people following you. And if you suddenly decide that maybe some transwomen actually aren't women because they are self-IDing for personal advantage after spending years saying anyone who said that might happen is a "transphobe" you just look like a fecking idiot. Which is precisely what Nicola Sturgeon looks like now. And this is the s.35 battle she's picked. And which clowns on this thread think is 'Westminster falling into a trap'. You're all delusional.

That's a negative outlook towards independence and trans people.

The Westminster govt is sticking its oar in, you dont seem particularly bothered about it.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

That's a negative outlook towards independence and trans people.

The Westminster govt is sticking its oar in, you dont seem particularly bothered about it.

Much like you are, who doesn't even live there!

 

[krtek a houby]

Much like you are, who doesn't even live there!

Ah, right.

Dont be commenting on anywhere you dont live, or on anything you dont have any relation or experience of, if thems the new rules .

 

[co-op]

That's a negative outlook towards independence and trans people.

The Westminster govt is sticking its oar in, you dont seem particularly bothered about it.

You've completely missed the point of my post.

 

[JTG]

I had hoped this kind of dishonest bigotry wasn't still tolerated here. Was I wrong then?

 

[Miss-Shelf]

As of February 2023, gender self-identification, where no judge or medical expert are involved, is part of the law in 19 countries: Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Switzerland and Uruguay.[11][12][13]

 

[Brainaddict]

Of course you can but if you choose to make your big independence battle over putting male rapists into women's prisons then you're not going to get many people following you. And if you suddenly decide that maybe some transwomen actually aren't women because they are self-IDing for personal advantage after spending years saying anyone who said that might happen is a "transphobe" you just look like a fecking idiot. Which is precisely what Nicola Sturgeon looks like now. And this is the s.35 battle she's picked. And which clowns on this thread think is 'Westminster falling into a trap'. You're all delusional.

It's not about putting male rapists in women's prisons. Risk assessments on where particular prisoners can be kept without endangering others is done now, and will continue to be done after people can get gender recognition certificates more easily. Your leap to saying that is what gender recognition is about shows a fear, a phobia if you will, that all trans people are secretly predators. Like every section of the population, some tiny percentage of trans people are predators, but we don't design prisons or any part of society on the basis that everyone in a given population is a predator. That would lead to an extremely paranoid world in which we constantly live in fear of each other. Instead we try to isolate those few who are predators and protect people from them - however they identify. That happens now, it will happen after the gender recognition act.

And before you find some example from somewhere in the world of a trans woman who committed assaults in a women's prison, consider how hard people have had to look to find such cases, and then think about gay teachers in schools, and how at one time they were all assumed (by conservative-minded people) to be predators, and as 'proof' of that you could of course find a tiny handful of gay teachers who had preyed on pupils. But using those few examples as a way to explain why gay teachers shouldn't be allowed in schools was, and is, called homophobia.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Increasing the dignity and access to rights of trans people is always a good move

It's depressing as fuck to still see reactionary and inaccurate wild claims made here against trans people

 

[krtek a houby]

You've completely missed the point of my post.

Go on, then, Graham

 

[andysays]

Of course you can but if you choose to make your big independence battle over putting male rapists into women's prisons then you're not going to get many people following you. And if you suddenly decide that maybe some transwomen actually aren't women because they are self-IDing for personal advantage after spending years saying anyone who said that might happen is a "transphobe" you just look like a fecking idiot. Which is precisely what Nicola Sturgeon looks like now. And this is the s.35 battle she's picked. And which clowns on this thread think is 'Westminster falling into a trap'. You're all delusional.

Your blatant and dishonest anti-trans stance comes as no surprise by now, but the idea that the SNP has chosen to make their big independence battle over this gender recognition law is equally bullshit.

It's the UK government who have chosen to turn this into a constitutional issue, as many posts on the thread have already outlined.

Accusations that everyone else is delusional again come as no surprise, but they're kind of ironic in the circumstances.

 

[andysays]

I had hoped this kind of dishonest bigotry wasn't still tolerated here. Was I wrong then?

It's not really tolerated, it's called out for what it is by pretty much everyone.