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Weds 1st April: G20 protests - discussion, reaction and chat

oh pull your tongue from his arse, it's embarrassing.
What a curious imagination you have there.

It's escaped your notice that I've disagreed with pdxm on just about everything. I've just managed to do it without posting up abuse, which no one here should be subject to.

I meant exactly what I said: I value professional opinions, and those of people I disagree with. Abuse ends engagement, and reduces threads to lots of people who agree with each other. Pointless.
 
Speaking personally, I value highly the contributions of officers and other professionals in threads like these, and I have no time for abusive anti-police comments. I hope they don't put you off offering your opinion.


I also am glad that you take the time to come in and at least discuss the days events. I hope it also doesnt put you off coming in for discussion and I admit at this moment my emotions are so high that its difficult to keep my calm in this discussion.

Im calling it a night, for my own good and for the good of urban75 as i dont want to say anything ill regret in the morning.

However, you must understand why theres so much anger and bemusement at the tactics used. its not been the first time and i doubt it will be the last.

I hope lessons are learned, people are held accountable for their actions and an investigation will provide answers.

I doubt it tho, unfortunately the attitude of officers before and during the protest have made it clear that they have a prejudice against certain protests and protesters. The language used clearly shows this, and not by you personally pdxm....

The polis who are shown on video, photo and by witnesses to storm in with their batons and shields are scum. nothing less and it appears it is the majority. as per usual.

gnite.,
 
However if you are working at close quarters, with other people using their batons then you can't do the strikes that you would normally do, i.e from the ready postion, through 90 degrees and onto the arm or thigh. Why cos you'd hit the copper next to you. Also you forget that cops feel fear too and if you're in that siuation there is only really one of two things in your mind, "don't go down" and "don't get detached".

All of which neatly dodges the question of why it was necessary or appropriate to hit people from any position, ready or otherwise.

So coppers feel fear eh? Well they had helmets, padding, shields and batons. The people they were attacking had fuck all. I'm sure there were frightened people on both sides of the line but the bulk of my sympathy will remain with the defenceless victims rather than the tooled-up agressors if it's all the same to you. I don't think you can imagine the terror of having a horde of armed, masked men charging at you swinging batons and lashing out with shields when you have precisely nowhere to go to escape them.
 
How tight a space were all of the Strasborg protesters confined to and how many hours above five were they held there without foood, drink or access to medication?

Access to medication? Wouldn't a grown adult who needed essential medication have the wit to take it with them??? from what I can gather the CRS got out the rubber bullets long before the need to kettle ever arose.
 
Also you forget that cops feel fear too and if you're in that siuation there is only really one of two things in your mind, "don't go down" and "don't get detached".
"Otherwise the enemy here will get you!!11!"

article-1166349-04391428000005DC-968_468x692.jpg
 
Access to medication? Wouldn't a grown adult who needed essential medication have the wit to take it with them???

They might not have known they needed it. They might have been intending to wander past and see what was going on, not to get detained for hours on end for no reason. They might, in fact, have been merely walking home from work.
 
No glass allowed then? I personally would never intentionally hit anyone around the head with an Asp. That said I've never hit anyone with a baton in 11 years. However if you are working at close quarters, with other people using their batons then you can't do the strikes that you would normally do, i.e from the ready postion, through 90 degrees and onto the arm or thigh. Why cos you'd hit the copper next to you. Also you forget that cops feel fear too and if you're in that siuation there is only really one of two things in your mind, "don't go down" and "don't get detached".

Sure.

More sure in fact. In my worldview, someone has to be police. And if I had to do that job, I'd be looking out for my colleagues. Minimise the damage.

But that's not your position? It seems that it's not looking after your team mates (which alot of people do, in many jobs, against their personal principals), but a defence of policy regardless, something that you have no say in?
 
All of which neatly dodges the question of why it was necessary or appropriate to hit people from any position, ready or otherwise.

So coppers feel fear eh? Well they had helmets, padding, shields and batons. The people they were attacking had fuck all. I'm sure there were frightened people on both sides of the line but the bulk of my sympathy will remain with the defenceless victims rather than the tooled-up agressors if it's all the same to you. I don't think you can imagine the terror of having a horde of armed, masked men charging at you swinging batons and lashing out with shields when you have precisely nowhere to go to escape them.

It doesn't dodge the question. The particality of it is this. Large crowd of organised people apparently determined not to move. Operational decision taken (rightly or wrongly) to move them.

Options:-

1) Ask politely--- unlikely to succeed

2) Try and physcially remove/arrest each individual--- logistical impossiblity

3) Use force

Now you as a protestor have an option. You can either see the police line forming up and try and move away from it. Or you can walk towards it.
 
Those that wanted to protest were given ample opportunity.

It's significant that you've not answered my point that it was by no means essential to re-open Bishopsgate at night.

It seems, given your description of what was going through Gold's mind, that the idea of letting the Climate Camp run its course was never even considered.

It now seems certain that the command's definition of "ample opportunity to protest" is "until we say you've done enough protesting".

The entire point, for them, is to have the final say who does what when and where, yes? Overtime, numbers, the fear of "bad elements" crashing in... all these could have been sorted. But sorting them wasn't considered.
 
It doesn't dodge the question. The particality of it is this. Large crowd of organised people apparently determined not to move. Operational decision taken (rightly or wrongly) to move them.

Options:-

1) Ask politely--- unlikely to succeed

2) Try and physcially remove/arrest each individual--- logistical impossiblity

3) Use force

Now you as a protestor have an option. You can either see the police line forming up and try and move away from it. Or you can walk towards it.

People were unable to leave because of the police. How was assaulting the protestors the best option when the alternative was simply leaving them be? None of them were violent, they were simply members of the public in a public space. If your argument is that splitting people's heads open was the lesser of two evils then your argument doesn't hold a great deal of water.
 
Options:-

1) Ask politely--- unlikely to succeed

2) Try and physcially remove/arrest each individual--- logistical impossiblity

3) Use force
They're not the only options, though. I wasn't suggesting protestors who refused to move (if this happened) be asked politely, but that they be ordered to leave by a given time, and those who refuse be removed by force. It might, as you say, give some time to bed down, but it gives others a chance to rethink and scarper.

As for running away from a line of police who advance without warning, not only could it cause panic, but if police are blocking routes of escape, it seems counter productive in the extreme. And dangerous to both officers and protestors.

I know that perfection isn't an option, but there must be more efficient and just methods.
 
Now you as a protestor have an option. You can either see the police line forming up and try and move away from it. Or you can walk towards it.
LIAR!


Again you are lying. People were caught in the mele at 19:45 who had no intention of being caught in such a situation.





was present at the Climate Camp protest from the outset at 12.30 and was impressed hugely by the calm and peaceful manner in which the camp unfolded and began its programme of talks and workshops. I felt then that the police were doing an excellent job of allowing the camp to run as planned and was greatly heartened by this. Their presence to me, as a first time protestor, was truly reassuring and friendly. I began to think that we, as society, were really starting to make progress. Peaceful protestors and police working together to facilitate a public opportunity for learning and debate about climate change. What an achievement! I was so proud of everyone involved, police and protestors alike.
The day got even better as people passing by en-route to the office stopped for a chat or a locally sourced treat from the food stall. With the sun shining down throughout the afternoon the mood was happy and relaxed. The police had the good judgement to ensure everyone there was able to come and go freely, in marked contrast to the police cordons established nearby. I noticed newer people arriving from those cordons expressing dismay at the ‘hippy shit they witnessed. ‘We need chaos not f**ing camping being one comment but I was pleased by their interest and ultimately their respect for the camp, indeed there was no violence here, just community. How wonderful, then, that the camp had the ability to engender calm and peace in the very people whod been held back for hours. How great to see smiles on these faces.
This calm, happy atmosphere continued until, with no warning or provocation WHATSOEVER, riot police charged as a line into the South End of the camp where I was unlucky enough to be sitting. The following events are recorded thus:

With other protestors I moved forward, arms raised and utterly defenceless. Immediately the police started hitting us. I have never been hit by another human being in my life. I am a 35 year old woman. What I saw, heard and felt in the next 10 minutes will haunt me for some time to come. I was pushed to the front, immediately face to face with aggression and anger Ive never witnessed before at such close range. This rage was never in the faces of protestors but in the faces flaring behind plastic visors. All around me people were being pushed and beaten by black gloved hands wielding batons. I tried to reason with the man pushing his riot shield sideways into my ribcage and smashing his baton down on the people around me.
I looked into his eyes and could see the human there. I asked him, verbatim:
Me: ‘Why are you doing this?
Him: ‘Because we want you to move.
Me: ‘Why didnt you just ask us?
No reply
I was suffocating from the force of people pushing me forward and the shield now wedged firmly against my chest. My legs started giving way and I felt dizzy and deafened. This human in front of me now saw I was having difficulty standing and asked me if I wanted to come out. By this time I was in a shocked daze and within the next two seconds hed grabbed my shoulder and levered me past him and out into the street. Someone pushed me forward again for good measure as I was stumbling forward finding my balance.
On the other side a legal observer who seen everything, ran up, asked me if I was okay and immediately took a statement. The incident was filmed from several angles. Indeed the batons I had looked up to avoid were competing with a sound boom at one point. I was left to wander the streets for the next 4 hours, no coat in the freezing temperatures and absolutely no way of returning to retrieve my belongings or rejoining my friends. On asking police exhaustedly, hours later, when people inside the camp might be freed and I might be able to go home, I was told: ‘No chance. Youll only start trouble again somewhere else, wont you?. I am a teacher, not and never a troublemaker. I wouldnt talk to a six-year old like this. In fact a six-year old would swiftly recognise this treatment for what it is. Bullying.
I liken the events I witnessed yesterday to a loss of innocence. Ive been bought up to trust and respect police. I have always admired the efficient and professional police manner I have witnessed on the handful of (usually school-based) previous occasions when Ive had contact with the police.
My long established trust is at an end. The only people I saw committing a public act of violence at Climate Camp last night were in uniform, moving as one and utterly intent on causing fear among those they attacked. How incredulous I am that, in the face of this advancing and serious danger to themselves, it was the good-natured protesters who behaved impeccably, responding with no retaliation, with no violence. Their responsibility and patience at the onslaught takes my breath away.


Link to guardian article
 
It's significant that you've not answered my point that it was by no means essential to re-open Bishopsgate at night.

It seems, given your description of what was going through Gold's mind, that the idea of letting the Climate Camp run its course was never even considered.

It now seems certain that the command's definition of "ample opportunity to protest" is "until we say you've done enough protesting".

The entire point, for them, is to have the final say who does what when and where, yes? Overtime, numbers, the fear of "bad elements" crashing in... all these could have been sorted. But sorting them wasn't considered.


It would have been. I'm quite sure the loggists hand was very sore by the end of the day. If GOLD hadn't had all the other competing demands on him then it may well have been allowed. After all other demos/camps have been policed for weeks on end. But you forget that GOLD has an overview of events wider than just Bishops Gate. The policing of G20 extended to the policing of 20 different hotels for heads of state, a massive operation around the US ambass residence, securing excel overnight, releasing officers to police the 32 boroughs, other intel coming in about emerging threats etc. All of that is resource intensive. He has to balance that against the ability to police a crowd all night.
 
You can either see the police line forming up and try and move away from it. Or you can walk towards it.

But pxdm that's a nonsense in terms of what happened.

The condensed version of climate camp seemed like this:

Prots: "We're Camping Here"
Plod: "OK..."
Plod: "...but you can't leave now"
Prots: "We don't want to"
Plod: "You have to leave."

Silly game by the met. It really was. This wasn't "masked anarchists".
 
But pxdm that's a nonsense in terms of what happened.

The condensed version of climate camp seemed like this:

Prots: "We're Camping Here"
Plod: "OK..."
Plod: "...but you can't leave now"
Prots: "We don't want to"
Plod: "You have to leave."

Silly game by the met. It really was. This wasn't "masked anarchists".

It was probably a mistake to let it get established but then you get accusations of not allowing protest. Secondly, at the time it was being set up the majority of the polices resources were tucked up in o/s BOE. I think the climate camp took the police commanders a little by surprise.
 
LIAR!
The following events are recorded thus:

What comes across most from that video is the lack of information given to the protestors. I've been in large crowds countless times, and ignorance is dangerous. An announcement over a bullhorn, or whatever kit the police have, telling the demonstrators the situation and giving them clear instructions to disperse, and how to do this, could have made all the difference.

Whatever their intentions, a line of police decked up in paramilitary garb descending into a crowd without warning isn't likely to end well.
 
It would have been. I'm quite sure the loggists hand was very sore by the end of the day. If GOLD hadn't had all the other competing demands on him then it may well have been allowed. After all other demos/camps have been policed for weeks on end. But you forget that GOLD has an overview of events wider than just Bishops Gate. The policing of G20 extended to the policing of 20 different hotels for heads of state, a massive operation around the US ambass residence, securing excel overnight, releasing officers to police the 32 boroughs, other intel coming in about emerging threats etc. All of that is resource intensive. He has to balance that against the ability to police a crowd all night.

Do you genuinely believe that the protestors would have been there for "weeks on end"

And - in context - do you think that protest outside parliament is a public order issue? That's been going on for several years. How do you personally balance the two?
 
I think the climate camp took the police commanders a little by surprise.
It was advertised on the demo website days in advance! I've no involvement with the demonstrators but I found it after a quick browse on Google.
 
Do you genuinely believe that the protestors would have been there for "weeks on end"

And - in context - do you think that protest outside parliament is a public order issue? That's been going on for several years. How do you personally balance the two?

I think the Parliament protest law is a silly one and passed cos the MPs hate the sight of Brian Haw.
 
Do you genuinely believe that the protestors would have been there for "weeks on end"

And - in context - do you think that protest outside parliament is a public order issue? That's been going on for several years. How do you personally balance the two?

No I don't believe it would have been there for weeks on end. But for all the reasons i have mentioned the commanders would have been very reluctant to allow it have gone into the hours of darkness
 
To be fair this situation isn't the same as the Brian Haw one. The Climate Camp may have been blocking the highway: I walked past Mr Haw's little shanty town plenty of times before it was partly-dismantled, and the only thing it impeded was the MPs' view.
 
I might be an 'unusual' angry person in all of this. I've argued for policing. For posters who were in the police job. Argued - maybe misguidedly for a little less hounding of DB and the likes.

I'm a natural sceptic. I want proof, numbers, stats. This time I've dug. Alot. I think the police approach was sketchy. At best.
 
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