Weds 1st April: G20 protests - discussion, reaction and chat

[pdxm]

I would imagine the police Commanders decision log would look something like this:-

1) have facilitated protest for nearly 12 hours now/ need to balance rights of protestors with rights of others. Protestors have no right to occupy highway indefintely

2) Darkness is approaching making public order policing inherently more difficult/dangerous

3) Have not got resources to police crowd through the night via kettle or cordon. Public order officers deployed since early morning need relief

4) FIT intel

Decision:- clear the street

 

[ricbake]

They certainly have a mob mentality in those situations

 

[DotCommunist]

Without talking to anybody involved, just smash them?

Also, copper, is the edge of the shield an appropriate use of this piece of equipment?

 

[Azrael]

Protestors have no right to occupy highway indefintely

This makes sense, but I believe "kettling" began a lot earlier than 12 hours in. And how does mass detention for hours on end help to clear the public highway?

Unless there's a riot, what's wrong with announcing that protestors have X amount of time to clear the area, and holding off any action until the time has passed?

 

[pdxm]

Without talking to anybody involved, just smash them?

Also, copper, is the edge of the shield an appropriate use of this piece of equipment?

The edge of the shield you refer to is plastic and rounded and hurts a damn sight less than a baton. Do you think that if the police had put a big sign up saying thank you very much for coming now would you mind awfully going home now that would have worked?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

This makes sense, but I believe "kettling" began a lot earlier than 12 hours in. And how does mass detention for hours on end help to clear the public highway?

Unless there's a riot, what's wrong with announcing that protestors have X amount of time to clear the area, and holding off any action until the time has passed?

Perhaps if the protesters had left when they pleased, the police would have felt impotent. They live for the thrill they get from having people obey their orders, even more so when they have to be intimidated first.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

The edge of the shield you refer to is plastic and rounded and hurts a damn sight less than a baton. Do you think that if the police had put a big sign up saying thank you very much for coming now would you mind awfully going home now that would have worked?

fuck off copper. if you think there is any excuse whatsoever for the way that you lot assaulted and abused a completely peaceful crowd of people, then there isn't much hope for any kind of progressive dialogue occuring. what took place subsequent to the window smashing in threadneedle street was unnecessary, overdone and brutal basically.

 

[DotCommunist]

The edge of the shield you refer to is plastic and rounded and hurts a damn sight less than a baton. Do you think that if the police had put a big sign up saying thank you very much for coming now would you mind awfully going home now that would have worked?

I know what material the shields are made from you cretin and unless thermosetting plastics suddenly became rubber while I wasn't looking they are still dangerous tactics. Are they in the book or is it your lot getting inventive? Answer the fucking question.
And no discussion took place. The most peacable fluffy green-softies got smashed to shit for the crime of daring to protest.

Wear your butchers apron with pride.

 

[pdxm]

Perhaps if the protesters had left when they pleased, the police would have felt impotent. They live for the thrill they get from having people obey their orders.

Well you see for every protestor who wants to do what he or she pleases there is someone else who would also like to drive down the street, use their offices, be a tourist in the area, etc. It's about competing rights. The police have to balance those rights. The street was occupied without significant police intervention for a considerable time. That's fair. But there comes a point when the practicalities of policing such a protest kick in. There are a finite number of officers who are trained to police such an event. As it happens a large number of those finite resources were deployed at the various hotels world leaders were staying in. The resources there would have been needed for the next day. The numbers needed to police that sort of a crowd in darkness would not have been available. The police commanders have to make a decision at some point.

 

[Azrael]

Do you think that if the police had put a big sign up saying thank you very much for coming now would you mind awfully going home now that would have worked?

We can't know until it's tried, can we? Unless officer safety is compromised, the police shouldn't be acting on what people might do.

Who would have lost out had the police used megaphones to order to the protestors to disperse?

 

[pdxm]

I know what material the shields are made from you cretin and unless thermosetting plastics suddenly became rubber while I wasn't looking they are still dangerous tactics. Are they in the book or is it your lot getting inventive? Answer the fucking question.
And no discussion took place. The most peacable fluffy green-softies got smashed to shit for the crime of daring to protest.

Wear your butchers apron with pride.

Yes they are in the book, it's a trained techinque. Indeed most of the officers doing it were level I officers, the highest level of public order training

 

[Azrael]

It's about competing rights.

Don't see this myself. Protestors have no right to block the highway. If they're doing this, they should be told to move on. If they refuse after a clear warning, then police action is justified.

I don't see how mass detention helps anyone. It certainly doesn't unclog the city streets!

 

[DotCommunist]

Well you see for every protestor who wants to do what he or she pleases there is someone else who would also like to drive down the street, use their offices, be a tourist in the area, etc. It's about competing rights. The police have to balance those rights. The street was occupied without significant police intervention for a considerable time. That's fair. But there comes a point when the practicalities of policing such a protest kick in. There are a finite number of officers who are trained to police such an event. As it happens a large number of those finite resources were deployed at the various hotels world leaders were staying in. The resources there would have been needed for the next day. The numbers needed to police that sort of a crowd in darkness would not have been available. The police commanders have to make a decision at some point.

apologist for brutality eh
Jellyfish (also known as jellies or sea jellies) are free-swimming members of the phylum Cnidaria. They have several different morphologies that represent several different cnidarian classes including the Scyphozoa (about 200 species), Staurozoa (about 50 species), Cubozoa (about 20 species

 

[pdxm]

We can't know until it's tried, can we? Unless officer safety is compromised, the police shouldn't be acting on what people might do.

Who would have lost out had the police used megaphones to order to the protestors to disperse?

I believe it was tried previously and they even used the Skyshout on I99 on that occassion to no avail. However the climate camp had stated their intention to remain for 24hrs. I believe there were extensive discussions. For all the resourcing implications I have set out it would not have been viable to police that

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Yes they are in the book, it's a trained techinque. Indeed most of the officers doing it were level I officers, the highest level of public order training

so why do you need to use the "technique" on non-violent people with their hands in the air and with no obvious sign of violence (apart from the cops) being displayed by the crowd?

 

[DotCommunist]

Yes they are in the book, it's a trained techinque. Indeed most of the officers doing it were level I officers, the highest level of public order training

Disgusting. That our supposed protectors woulsd be trained in such techniques.

This is not a riot *hands in the air*

valid excuse to fuck them up?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

apparently.

 

[Azrael]

I believe it was tried previously and they even used the Skyshout on I99 on that occassion to no avail. However the climate camp had stated their intention to remain for 24hrs. I believe there were extensive discussions. For all the resourcing implications I have set out it would not have been viable to police that

Given all that, still not seeing how a warning would have hurt. If nothing else, it would help the police case. "We told them to leave, we kept escape routes open, they ignored us."

 

[pdxm]

Disgusting. That our supposed protectors woulsd be trained in such techniques.

This is not a riot *hands in the air*

valid excuse to fuck them up?

Out of interest how would you have moved a crowd of people who didn't want to move?

 

[paolo]

With specific respect to the climate camp. what would have been the implications to public order if they had stayed for their intended 24 hours?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Because of course, the workings of capitalism are too important to be slightly inconvenienced by a bunch of (apparently in the minds of the police) sub-human eco-hippies, therefore force is justified right?

 

[DotCommunist]

Out of interest how would you have moved a crowd of people who didn't want to move?

A crowd who stated their terms? As the climate camp did (24 hours iirc)?

I'd have allowed them their protest and then waved them off as they dispersed.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Out of interest how would you have moved a crowd of people who didn't want to move?

shields and batons works well when you can be bothered....

for a bunch of squatters ffs

 

[pdxm]

Given all that, still not seeing how a warning would have hurt. If nothing else, it would help the police case. "We told them to leave, we kept escape routes open, they ignored us."

Possibly, you may well have a point. Indeed the IPCC report on the Countryside Alliance makes interesting points on this. However, the police commanders would have used their experience. It might well have been counter-productive, if you give a group of determined people warning that you are going to try and make them move then you give them time to prepare. Sit-down, bring agitiators to the front, link arms etc. It's a balancing act

 

[DotCommunist]

PDXM: your lot behaved with appalling aggression against peaceful protesters.

 

[pdxm]

Because of course, the workings of capitalism are too important to be slightly inconvenienced by a bunch of (apparently in the minds of the police) sub-human eco-hippies, therefore force is justified right?

It's got nothing to do with capitalism. The police commanders are in a difficult posiiton. On the one hand they have to allow protest, on the other hand they have to cope with finite public order resources, changing crowd dynamics, the legitmate concerns of other people about wanting to use roads, offices etc and the risk (however determined) of serious disorder breaking out. They have to strike a balance and it is a very difficult one.

 

[DotCommunist]

Possibly, you may well have a point. Indeed the IPCC report on the Countryside Alliance makes interesting points on this. However, the police commanders would have used their experience. It might well have been counter-productive, if you give a group of determined people warning that you are going to try and make them move then you give them time to prepare. Sit-down, bring agitiators to the front, link arms etc. It's a balancing act

Oh yeah that totally justifies smacking the fuck out of the fluffies. Well done to your lot

 

[pdxm]

Oh yeah that totally justifies smacking the fuck out of the fluffies. Well done to your lot

Well I could put a counter argument.

1) How many "fluffies were seriously injured"

2) Whose decision was it for the individuals involved to stand right at the front of the police lines?

3) Given the option how many would have left peacefully or how many would have said "make us"?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

too scared to answer any of my questions copper? you're a shitter like all your mates. why did you baton charge a completely peaceful bunch of people pdxm?

 

[DotCommunist]

It's got nothing to do with capitalism. The police commanders are in a difficult posiiton. On the one hand they have to allow protest, on the other hand they have to cope with finite public order resources, changing crowd dynamics, the legitmate concerns of other people about wanting to use roads, offices etc and the risk (however determined) of serious disorder breaking out. They have to strike a balance and it is a very difficult one.

Actually they only got the riot gear on after the (dodgy) smashing of the RBS windows.
Plenty of mainstream news sources were shocked by the conduct of the police. Well fuck it, keep it up. You police by consent as you will learn if you keep to repressive tactics