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Weds 1st April: G20 protests - discussion, reaction and chat

free_spirit - wish the police weren't so heavy handed, but nonviolence is only way. if everyone had behaved like the climate camp, then the press would have had no violent scenes to film and couldn't piece together an anti-anti-G20 montage to paint all protesters in bad light
 
free_spirit - wish the police weren't so heavy handed, but nonviolence is only way. if everyone had behaved like the climate camp, then the press would have had no violent scenes to film and couldn't piece together an anti-anti-G20 montage to paint all protesters in bad light

Admirable sentiment but the media is pretty much always going to be against us, attempts to claim the moral high ground would only ever be recognised by the people who were there, people who the police would still happily kettle up and trample over because, let's face it, they rarely need an excuse to get aggressive. As Climate Camp has shown. I doubt that I could sit patiently while they twatted me with their batons, but perhaps I'm just not as strong willed as some.
 
i hope we see more than we did today in light of the news, all on the streets i wish i could get to london and join in, good luck one in all need to sleep up at by 9am: twitter images and news with this tag #imcg20 for indymedia feed and let the police remeber they killed one of us:
 
free_spirit - wish the police weren't so heavy handed, but nonviolence is only way. if everyone had behaved like the climate camp, then the press would have had no violent scenes to film and couldn't piece together an anti-anti-G20 montage to paint all protesters in bad light

would love this to be true, but if i was there and a rbs bank smash it would go, no doubt whatsoever to be frank, likewise if the police attacked me or those around me i see self defence as no offence and light of the news, as said i hope the police pay for killing a protester to be frank, yes incitement but they killed a man today due to there actions i feel very strong this will be the fact:
 
As of 0200 BST, there had been 87 arrests for offences including violent disorder, obstruction, aggravated burglary, arson and unlawful possession of police uniforms.


meanwhile bbcnews website seems to be playing down the death.
 
I have, on the head and arm, didn't feel it at the time because I was so pumped, but it hurt for days after. The bruise on my arm went purple, it was quite funny..

So we're talking a pretty nasty sting if you get it on the arm or body but a possibly very nasty cut if you get it on the head?

In the videos, the police seem to be using a lot of overarm downward throws, as if aiming for the head. Is that what they're trained to do?

When they're at police school re-enacting a riot and the "rioters" are all dressed in rubber and the "police" form a line and deploy the batons, presumably there's a sergeant at the end of line shouting instructions.

Does he shout "No, I want more head shots" or "No, guys avoid the head, you might cause a fatal injury"?

Seems like the baton is a bit over the top for this kind of gig but would also not be much use in a one on one with a genuine criminal.
 
free_spirit - wish the police weren't so heavy handed, but nonviolence is only way. if everyone had behaved like the climate camp, then the press would have had no violent scenes to film and couldn't piece together an anti-anti-G20 montage to paint all protesters in bad light
I've done this arguement to death over the years, mostly coming at it from your point of view (for protest in this country at least), and am needing to go to bed now, so all I'll say is that I hope you're right, but fear you're wrong.

this government has shown that it takes no notice of whatever scale of peaceful protest you can manage, or at best pays lip service to doing something to acknowledge it while actually doing the opposite. At the same time they're intent on removing / have already removed a huge amount of our old freedoms to protest and object legally and peacefully to their policies (and effectively). When these policies include starting illegal wars that lead to the deaths of in the region of a million civilians, is doing sweet fuck all about climate change that's going to kill many more, and instead of moving towards sustainable development as agreed at Rio, have persued headlong neoliberal policies that have led to the virtual collapse of the global economy and yet still they persist in mortgaging this and the next generation upto the hilt in some futile attempt to bail the failed system out... at some point, maybe, non violence stops being the logical tactic*.

Also kinda depends what you mean by non-violence, as you seem to be conflating targeted destruction of property with actual violence.



*not saying we're at that point now mind
 
I've done this arguement to death over the years, mostly coming at it from your point of view (for protest in this country at least), and am needing to go to bed now, so all I'll say is that I hope you're right, but fear you're wrong.

this government has shown that it takes no notice of whatever scale of peaceful protest you can manage, or at best pays lip service to doing something to acknowledge it while actually doing the opposite. At the same time they're intent on removing / have already removed a huge amount of our old freedoms to protest and object legally and peacefully to their policies (and effectively). When these policies include starting illegal wars that lead to the deaths of in the region of a million civilians, is doing sweet fuck all about climate change that's going to kill many more, and instead of moving towards sustainable development as agreed at Rio, have persued headlong neoliberal policies that have led to the virtual collapse of the global economy and yet still they persist in mortgaging this and the next generation upto the hilt in some futile attempt to bail the failed system out... at some point, maybe, non violence stops being the logical tactic*.

Also kinda depends what you mean by non-violence, as you seem to be conflating targeted destruction of property with actual violence.



*not saying we're at that point now mind

very quickly, since I too should be asleep right now,
1) the non-violence works, for example, the Bi'lin protests in Palestine-Israel held jointly by Israeli-Palestinian Jews and Arabs. search the Middle East forum on my posts there on the non-violence movement.
2) Best reason to do it - only the authorities are the ones meting out the violence. Agent provocateurs and random violence starters can be rooted out easier this way. We live in Britain, not Israel-Palestine. We need to build public support, at this early stage, all is not lost, but it could be lost in future if violent acts against persons or property continue Non-violent demos will encourage others who might not join in to join in. If people think they're going to get hurt, either by acts of other protestors or by police, they won't join us and we lose.
3) Don't confuse non-violence with a civil disobedience, e.g. squatting, sit-downs, repeated marches/demos to keep issue in news. Throwing missiles which might injure someone on the demo or even the police is potentially violent.
4) Fighting-fund - money is needed to fight ineveitable court cases - see Anarchists against the Wall website for news of how long a fight needs to be kept running. It took 2 years to get the Bi'lin demo - held every week by - before Channel 4 news did a long piece on the issues.

By non-violence, I mean no throwing any missiles, smoke bombs. No point really in destroying property - private or public, but fine to dismantle illegal walls/fences (see Bi'ilin protests - where farmers cut off from their lands and denied access via checkpoints despite court orders saying farmers must be allowed access)
By civil disobedience I mean disregarding demands by authorities and demonstrating regardless, keeping spirits high, and getting articulate messages across via all media at disposal.
 
I was reading Le Monde earlier, as I can read French, n saw the thing about the bloke dying. Very sad, poor guy. I don't think a huge amount can really be assumed about the death yet can it? It mentioned that the hospital were not releasing details about the death. BBC News later just tacked it in as a single line thing to an older story which was pretty poor but not hugely surprising.

Well done on those who went and stayed peaceful, or tried their hardest! My friend's been at the Climate Camp thing and she saw it get pretty nasty at points, even though almost everyone there was trying to be peaceful. Night all, I wonder how sensationalist the Daily Heil will be getting tomorrow.... :rolleyes:
 
Guardian says City traders had been placing best on possible deaths:

"I'll make money if they arrest more than 140," he said. Traders, he explained, were putting spread bets on the number of arrests - with the quoted spread on Bloomberg at 130-140. They were also paying out on deaths and if more than 20 protesters were injured in horse charges. The riots, they said, were only a minor inconvenience: "We've been in this morning, made a lot of money and now are chilling out."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/bankers-betting-protesters-g20

sick sick sick.
 
One more....what was the protest about ..many things. So what have you got a bee in your bonnet about . The Police.

Is that what it was about ? You see if thousands turn up peacefully and they did. Fine. Wasn't a problem on the Saturday.

As you all know very well when you turn up masked up and ready to go then you get violence from both sides.

So why do that ? Was there trouble on the Saturday March ?

Shame on those that go along for the express purpose of attacking property and police. So don't complain. There are very few out of the six million Londoners who think anything more of you than the images on TV. That perhaps is a shame as well.
 
These pics were removed from that link overnight. I wonder why! Still up on their server obv.

article-1166349-04390431000005DC-345_468x286.jpg


article-1166349-04391428000005DC-968_468x692.jpg
 
she is tang...more to this protesting than first thought...

hear those getting charged are in the main for carrying knives?....nice though no doubt the police planted them or something...
 
One more....what was the protest about ..many things. So what have you got a bee in your bonnet about . The Police.

Is that what it was about ? You see if thousands turn up peacefully and they did. Fine. Wasn't a problem on the Saturday.

As you all know very well when you turn up masked up and ready to go then you get violence from both sides.

So why do that ? Was there trouble on the Saturday March ?

Shame on those that go along for the express purpose of attacking property and police. So don't complain. There are very few out of the six million Londoners who think anything more of you than the images on TV. That perhaps is a shame as well.

OK, let's put the RBS incident to one side for a moment.

Wtf was going on re climate change? There was no trouble there, none. Even the BBC reporter was :confused: All of a sudden, riot police move in. Why?

The arrests went from 19 during the day before then (including RBS) to the 80-odd that I woke up this morning to hear the media reporting on.

It was entirely peaceful. There were kids there. Why were they cordoned in by riot police out of the blue?
 
One more....what was the protest about ..many things. So what have you got a bee in your bonnet about . The Police.
PBP, I wasn't there yesterday, but I have been on demos in the past and seen with my own eyes police initiating and provoking. I've seen crowds pushed and shoved until tempers flare. I've seen people minding their own business being hit, knocked to the ground, huckled, bundled away. I'm sure other posters have similar experiences.

If this is even mentioned in the coverage, it is called "heavy handed" policing. But even that suggests the police were basically doing the right thing, but made tactical errors.

The point is that from even before the protests, the police seemed keen on a scrap. Far from being there as a neutral force, protecting the right to freedom of expression, they are partisan, protecting power and privilege; as an institution, they are part of the state's monopoly of violence. It is OK for the government to use violence for political ends, but not for anyone else to even get a little aerated. The former is at worst "heavy handed", the latter, even the mildest of disobedience, is "trouble-making" and illegitimate.

Orgreave, Polmaise, Polkemmet, Bilston Glen all saw police violence. I've seen it, too, at Faslane, at strikes, at warrant sales, and so on.
 
I'm gonna go today......Plan is to wear a pin stripe suit and a Fred Goodwin mask , whilst w*nking over a pile of £50 notes and laughing maniacally....it will go well:)
 
Every protest I've been on I've seen police violence.

Seen kids being punched, dwarves being thrown in the air and my partner had her ribs broken but was not allowed to leave where we were hemmed in.
 
I'm gonna go today......Plan is to wear a pin stripe suit and a Fred Goodwin mask , whilst w*nking over a pile of £50 notes and laughing maniacally....it will go well:)

I don't really know what you get out of these types of comments. It's not as if you're putting forward a genuine, well reasoned opinion that people can engage you with. All you're doing is trying to wind people up. There's any number of people that don't agree with the protests, think they're ill conceived, pointless, badly carried out. But they seem to be able to get their point across in a way that even if there's disagreement, there's a respect for the point of view. And they contribute too - take for example STFC who went and took some photos yesterday lunchtime and posted them up.

But you, you can't even troll successfully.
 
I don't really know what you get out of these types of comments. It's not as if you're putting forward a genuine, well reasoned opinion that people can engage you with. All you're doing is trying to wind people up. There's any number of people that don't agree with the protests, think they're ill conceived, pointless, badly carried out. But they seem to be able to get their point across in a way that even if there's disagreement, there's a respect for the point of view. And they contribute too - take for example STFC who went and took some photos yesterday lunchtime and posted them up.

But you, you can't even troll successfully.

your right...as it goes...

As said before I have no problem with protesting, in fact we have to have them, I do have a problem with those who hijack protests, those who are stupidly blinkered, have no agenda, who assume the police are in the wrong all the time, carry weapons to protests etc etc.

I will wind up these wasters as I see fit...those who defend these mugs, deify them and make out that this is the way to protest will be the object of my ridicule...thus it is written vive la revolution:D

Hey ho best be getting on
 
your right...as it goes...

As said before I have no problem with protesting, in fact we have to have them, I do have a problem with those who hijack protests, those who are stupidly blinkered, have no agenda, who assume the police are in the wrong all the time, carry weapons to protests etc etc.

I will wind up these wasters as I see fit...those who defend these mugs, deify them and make out that this is the way to protest will be the object of my ridicule...thus it is written vive la revolution:D

Hey ho best be getting on

i just think it was a wrong time to throw ridicule...

but hey each to their own..:hmm:
 
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