Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[ouirdeaux]

With porn the current feedback loop is all the pseudo-incest shit.

Is this really trending now? I can't say I keep up with the latest fashions in anything.

 

[mentalchik]

I think early exposure to very hard core porn is one of the big problems....have a member of my extended family who is a teacher (it's been his whole career) that is getting very young boys (it's a primary school) that are seeing porn, boys that are already displaying disturbing attitudes to girls.

 

[story]

Porn-induced erectile dysfunction is increasing, amongst younger men especially. (Young women and girls are also experiencing porn induced sexual dysfunction).

I think this is one of the things that’s driving the idea that masturbation is bad and “no-nut November”.

If young men and teenagers experience ED that can also be a driving factor in dysfunctional attitudes towards women and girls.

I suspected that anger arising from this could be driving vawg.



A quick search gives me this paper. Plenty more out there.

https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=dignity

The Public Health Harms of Pornography: The Brain, Erectile Dysfunction, and Sexual Violence
John D. Foubert
Oklahoma State University, john.foubert@gmail.com

 

[SpookyFrank]

Is this really trending now? I can't say I keep up with the latest fashions in anything.

It is something that has been flagged up in our safeguarding training.

 

[story]

Violence arising from porn induced ED is in addition to the already recognised connection between problematic porn use (PPU) and intimate partner violence including sexual violence.



We can’t put the genie back into the bottle. How do we mitigate the harms done by porn?

Telling teenagers (or anyone) not to masturbate obviously isn’t the answer.


Obviously the answer is proper education from an early age.
(I’ve said before that I think sexual education should include age appropriate guidance about giving and receiving pleasure.)

But that doesn’t address the adults.

 

[existentialist]

I'm not entirely joking when I suggest, as I occasionally do, that what we need is a source of non-exploitative, ethically-based pornography that models sex-positive attitudes and behaviours.

I guess getting something like that implemented would be fraught, though...

 

[story]

I think a decent amount of amateur porn pretty much fits that description existentialist

But realistically it’s never going to replace the hard-core stuff.

 

[existentialist]

I think a decent amount of amateur porn pretty much fits that description existentialist

But realistically it’s never going to replace the hard-core stuff.

It might be easier to bring pressure to bear on the hardcore stuff if there's a kinder alternative. If it were possible to put some pressure/incentive onto the primary sources to be more...discriminating in what they publish, for example. I realise that this is all hopelessly idealistic nonsense, but...

 

[kabbes]

Don’t get me wrong, there is an important conversation to be had about porn. But prioritising it during a discussion about violence against women is itself an example of the fetishisation of the woman-commodity and how that fetishisation gets normalised in common-sense discourse. It makes the violence into something that otherwise “well-adjusted” men fall into because their valuation of the woman-commodity has become corrupted. Far better to go back to what SpookyFrank was saying about how it is violence that subjectifies violence. Violence is inherent to the social, communal and family systems people are living in, not a downstream effect of third-party activity.

 

[Gaia]

I know it happens, but I struggle to get my head around it, and just don't get how anyone can treat someone else like that, it makes my blood boil.

It's happening to me right fucking now but, because it's sanctioned by the state it's not classed as DV and no fucker really cares. My abusers aren't just male, they're female too. I have been in TWO violent relationships, now I can't escape. There's ZERO regard for me as a person, ZERO regard for my human rights. I've been where I am now since 28/11/2023. I'm regularly physically assaulted. I'm denied proper nutrition. I'm not allowed anyone to come to the flat. Everything I do is monitored (I've enabled a VPN so that's one less thing they can control),

If this was DV, I could escape; trying to access help and support for PTSD was what started all this shite. I'm severely weak, severely malnourished, and I don't think that - without support, without help - I'm going to be around much longer, If I escaped from here (I can't leave the flat the flat door is alarmed) the plod would just return me. It's 20º and I'm FREEZING. I've tried to get the media interested, the CQC can't do anything (unless I leave myself vulnerable to them escalating the abuse).

I have no voice - and no access to legal assistance. I'm in some considerable pain and I'm EXHAUSTED.

Either free me - or kill me. This isn't an existence.

SJ

 

[story]

Gaia

Your plight isn’t being ignored on Urban. You’ve received advice and support on the threads you’ve started in the more private parts of this forum. I’m gently suggesting that rather than trying to find what you need in this more public and theoretical discussion, you’d be better served if you go back to those other threads and continue the conversation there.

I wish you well.

 

[existentialist]

Don’t get me wrong, there is an important conversation to be had about porn. But prioritising it during a discussion about violence against women is itself an example of the fetishisation of the woman-commodity and how that fetishisation gets normalised in common-sense discourse. It makes the violence into something that otherwise “well-adjusted” men fall into because their valuation of the woman-commodity has become corrupted. Far better to go back to what SpookyFrank was saying about how it is violence that subjectifies violence. Violence is inherent to the social, communal and family systems people are living in, not a downstream effect of third-party activity.

And if we're talking violence, we need to recognise that emotional violence is a pernicious and ongoing part of the problem. I know you know this.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Back to suicide as an act of ( emotional )Violence - my friend, who is in hiding with her 2 young children, just got a knock on the door from the police. Her violent ex found dead this morning - at "their special place"

 

[Lotte]

I guess the only good thing to come of it is that he stuck to taking his own life, rather than turning it into a murder suicide, but wow. What a horrible thing to have to deal with. And of course he picked a place with emotional significance.

 

[existentialist]

Back to suicide as an act of ( emotional )Violence - my friend, who is in hiding with her 2 young children, just got a knock on the door from the police. Her violent ex found dead this morning - at "their special place"

What I refer to when I am addressing students as the "You'll be sorry when I'm gone" suicidal motivation. Although I think, like most other motivations to suicide, it's not usually cognitively thought through, more of an urge.

 

[story]

Don’t get me wrong, there is an important conversation to be had about porn. But prioritising it during a discussion about violence against women is itself an example of the fetishisation of the woman-commodity and how that fetishisation gets normalised in common-sense discourse. It makes the violence into something that otherwise “well-adjusted” men fall into because their valuation of the woman-commodity has become corrupted. Far better to go back to what SpookyFrank was saying about how it is violence that subjectifies violence. Violence is inherent to the social, communal and family systems people are living in, not a downstream effect of third-party activity.

Fair. And I think I understand your point.

We do need to avoid the cul de sacs.

But when the various complex reactions to porn leads to occult rage, which later erupts in behaviour towards partners and children, it doesn’t make sense to hive it off into a separate category.

 

[weepiper]

My ex made direct threats to kill himself twice after I left him. I don't think he ever intended to do it, but he wanted to make me think he would, to punish me.

 

[story]

I suppose this kind of threat points to the paucity of emotional literacy some men have: they're feeling desperate but don't know how to own it, process it, handle it.

So they turn it into a weapon of attack.

And then it (theoretically) becomes the woman's responsibility.

Again.

All of it: his feelings, her part in the dynamic, his burden, the threatened outcome.

When/how do men do the work of rebuilding autonomy and power in their emotional lives?

 

[existentialist]

I suppose this kind of threat points to the paucity of emotional literacy some men have: they're feeling desperate but don't know how to own it, process it, handle it.

So they turn it into a weapon of attack.

And then it (theoretically) becomes the woman's responsibility.

Again.

All of it: his feelings, her part in the dynamic, his burden, the threatened outcome.

When/how do men do the work of rebuilding autonomy and power in their emotional lives?

Let's just say...it's possible. But it needs a willingness to change, and that is going to be the bigger challenge - getting men to more from a simplistic outlook that generally works to their advantage, to a more nuanced one that requires discarding of all kinds of assumptions, and much more difficult choices from day to day, isn't going to be something everyone will do willingly.

 

[kabbes]

.When/how do men do the work of rebuilding autonomy and power in their emotional lives?

I think one of the many problems arises from the fact that agency arises from first owning your own part in the bad things that have happened in your life. Not as a blame thing, not as an individualistic thing, not to deny the systemic ways that circumstances arose, but only because not recognising your own role in the emergence of the context that hurts you means that you are nothing but a passive victim of circumstances. So you only get agency by accepting that you did things wrong. And that’s exactly what men get socialised to avoid doing all their lives. It’s a real bugger, that.

 

[story]

I guess another aspect that needs some consideration is that women who are conditioned and indoctrinated into the patriarchy may feel…. reluctant? threatened? confused? disturbed? by this kind of (hopefully) radical shift.

I wonder what that will look like.

If they’re embedded and invested in things remaining the same (look at the rise of “trad wives”) they’ll feel all kinds of complicated things if men begin to do things and take responsibility for stuff that they might consider their territory.

I’m pretty sure enough women will be glad of the change but some degree of reflexive defence can’t be ruled out.

If men are digging in and resisting change so will women?

NAMNAW obvs




(Someone said they don’t like the NAMNAW thing kabbes? but for me it works as a short hand in order to deflect some coming in with the “not me, I’m not like that” ‘s, which is another cul de sac discussion.)

 

[kabbes]

It’s absolutely a thing that women also have internalised the gender norms of both men and women, and will also feel discomfort and react accordingly at men not following these norms. That’s what I was referring to earlier when I asked what you do if your partner is not willing to engage in the self-reflection you want to take part in?

It’s not me that objected to NAMNAW, by the way

 

[story]

So, following on from that, how does the thoughtful man open up this kind of discussion with his partner?

Or, if he’s single, with any of his women friends or family ?

Or is that part of the problem….? Men are not leading this conversation, especially where he wants to protect the status quo, or is unwilling/unable to examine his part in the problem.

So once again it’s the woman’s responsibility, with all the burden and emotional labour that entails.

That young man I mentioned earlier, saying “I let her talk over me…” He believes he’s doing his bit to make changes, but he’s just shifted the way he works to maintain the status quo: acting as if he’s the good guy as a strategy to keep going as always.


How do men begin this work?

 

[story]

I was talking with a woman friend about all this last week. She told me that she’s noticing stuff that previously would have gone unnoticed.

For example, she was with a woman friend sat on a park bench having a conversation. They were repeatedly interrupted by men who stopped to chat with them. All polite and cheerful, nothing overtly predatory, except that she was aware in a new way that this was men inserting themselves, intruding, on their private conversation. No woman stopped to say “isn’t it lovely here, you’ve picked a nice spot, are you enjoying the weather…?”

Men seemed compelled to demonstrate their assumed right to own their space. Presumably, if challenged, not one of those men would agree that they were being patriarchal.

 

[story]

There’s also cultural stuff to contend with too.

Some cultures are far more invested in habitual support of the status quo.

How does this effort to change stuff include them?

 

[Lotte]

I honestly think a lot of men don't even realise it until you point it out to them.

 

[story]

I honestly think a lot of men don't even realise it until you point it out to them.

I think that’s true.

And if it is pointed out to the them very often their first reflex is to deny, defend.

 

[kabbes]

I think that’s true.

And if it is pointed out to the them very often their first reflex is to deny, defend.

And say, “But I know women who also agree with me that women like this behaviour/langage/role”, like it’s just a big old game with two sides.

 

[story]

On the other hand…

A little while back a male friend and I were chatting and he asked me what I thought about something that had happened. He’d been out with a woman friend and she’d called him out for his behaviour. They’d been at a bar and it was his shout and she was served the wrong drink. My mate got into a quarrel with the barman about whose fault it was. Afterwards his friend said “Neither of you even noticed me! You were so busy being alpha bloke with the barman neither of you saw me trying to interrupt, even waving my hands around to get your attention”.

He said he absolutely hadn’t seen her or noticed her trying to interrupt. She’d said afterwards “I’m the one drinking the fucking drink! It was my drink and you two were being really territorial about it”.

His question to me was “Do you think it was territorial of me to try to get her the drink she wanted?”

I wasn’t there so it was pretty much a theoretical discussion. But the fact that he was wondering and asking after the event, so presumably pondering it, that was good, I reckon.

 

[Dystopiary]

I was talking with a woman friend about all this last week. She told me that she’s noticing stuff that previously would have gone unnoticed.

For example, she was with a woman friend sat on a park bench having a conversation. They were repeatedly interrupted by men who stopped to chat with them. All polite and cheerful, nothing overtly predatory, except that she was aware in a new way that this was men inserting themselves, intruding, on their private conversation. No woman stopped to say “isn’t it lovely here, you’ve picked a nice spot, are you enjoying the weather…?”

Men seemed compelled to demonstrate their assumed right to own their space. Presumably, if challenged, not one of those men would agree that they were being patriarchal.

And if pointed out to them those men almost certainly won't get that why when they do this they're so often met with pleasantries -"But she smiled back!" - and that it's not necessarily because women generally enjoy having their space invaded yet again by strangers demanding their emotional labour, and that the cost of not smiling back or whatever is the risk of verbal abuse or worse.