Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[InArduisFouette]

This place can be aggressive and enacts the same in group out group dynamics as any other group. It is a threat to the outers, that's its function, and a fight-flight response might be healthy.

fight or flight can be healthy, 'freeze' and 'fawn' less so , but you also have to understand and calibrate what is an appropriate reaction to the stimulus

 

[LeytonCatLady]

A woman I know was assaulted by her partner so badly that he fractured her skull. He got a 4-month prison sentence for that.

A few months after his release from prison, he was arrested for a burglary that involved the theft of £40k's worth of antique silver. The house was empty, and no-one was hurt.

For that, he got 8 years.

My ex only got an eight month prison sentence (out in four for good behaviour) after repeatedly punching a subsequent girlfriend in the stomach while she was pregnant and then trying to strangle her. The stupid judge said the lighter sentence was because the baby was fine and the mother had suffered "only" minor injuries, and because he'd been "of good character" until his mum's death. Well, what about the mental torture/trauma this young woman must have gone through, thinking she was about to die at the hands of the man who was supposed to love her? And most adults outlive their parents without abusing other people. He deserved the max for attempted murder, not just "assault". And you'll always get some idiot speculating that "she must have provoked him". That's what a work colleague said when I was reading the newspaper article about his sentencing, and it always beats me how quick people are to make excuses for men like this. I did point out to her that any "provocation" would have been used in court by his defence, and even they struggled to say anything positive about him other than "he knows what he did was wrong".

 

[InArduisFouette]

What we do is a traditionally male sport but is actually predominantly female at the moment. In the junior section girls outnumber boys about 2:1. I can't get them to do anything really. We have usually one or two hours if sport specific training a week anything else is in their time.

I had actually planned to highlight the benefits one girls dancing might bring to the sport. I'll do that louder. I have had in mind sending out some yoga based workouts. Generally I treat the boys and girls the same and events are not split in to genders until the adults. At a recent championship we targeted the best girls category and won. Everyone races there is an overall winner then those mixed and girl crews who progress the furthest also get a trophy. Next year I intend to take most of the same girls beat the best mixed crew and try for second overall. First would be nice but the winners are consistently ridicuosly good. I explained it to the one boy who would have been justifiably annoyed to have been left out and he was cool with it.

rowing ? sailing ?

 

[Red Cat]

fight or flight can be healthy, 'freeze' and 'fawn' less so , but you also have to understand and calibrate what is an appropriate reaction to the stimulus

That's not for you to decide about a stranger on a bulletin board though is it? It's not an 'appropriate reaction' to the poster.

Most people underestimate the threat of the group, it's why bullying is so damaging, it's always a group phenomenon, wittingly or otherwise.

 

[InArduisFouette]

That's not for you to decide about a stranger on a bulletin board though is it? It's not an 'appropriate reaction' to the poster.

Most people underestimate the threat of the group, it's why bullying is so damaging, it's always a group phenomenon, wittingly or otherwise.

Interesting jump there,

I'm not sure whether this is meant to be an attack foir attack;s sake or whether you have chosen to put a particular (and IMO perverse) reading onto the idea that people might want to reflect on their reactions to a topic sometimes and calibrate things...

 

[Numbers]

I wonder if Urban men choose not to engage on these sorts of posts because they don't want to be seen as 'taking over' womens' issues? Or they might be accused of mansplaining, or something like that?

I do read these threads but never feel I have anything to contribute above what others say.

 

[Rompipalle]

I think what story is saying here is that your reactions to some of the posts and some of the comments which are either criticism of your position / views or are comments you are choosing to take as a criticism directed at you rather than criticism of a group of people ( whether posters in the thread or a wider group in society ) is causing some kind of physiologically or psychologically arousing reaction ( fight or flight type arousal rather than sexual) which means your immediate reasction is one of agression or fear.

Acknowledging this is the first step, what you now need to consider is ' is acknowleding i might react like this is enough i just need to take a deep breath and read it again ' or is it setting off a trauma response or a disproprtionate anger response , which is where you might need to consider looking towards doing some more 'work' whether yourself as self directed study / reflection/ mindfullness on the topic to firm out your understanding of the topic and your own reactions or whether this is something you need to approach froma more clinical/ therapeutic angle ( and therefore going down the route of counselling / psychotherapy and specific apprioaches to managing trauma ( the stuff which is used in PTSD/CPTSD managmeent / treatment )

Thank you for your reply but as you know nothing whatsoever about me, your "advice" is neither sought, nor appropriate nor welcome.

 

[Red Cat]

Interesting jump there,

I'm not sure whether this is meant to be an attack foir attack;s sake or whether you have chosen to put a particular (and IMO perverse) reading onto the idea that people might want to reflect on their reactions to a topic sometimes and calibrate things...

I'm saying that you have no idea what is a reasonable calibration or not for anybody else and that it might be reasonable to duck out of a group situation that feels unpleasant, or worse, without the suggestion they might need therapy.

That's not an attack on you or anyone else. That's a bizarre reading.

 

[krtek a houby]

Have posted three (including this one) comments on the thread and realise it's better if my position is one of observation, for now. As I have no answers and would rather learn.

(Obviously, am aware of the disturbing rise of not just violence but violent rhetoric also and it's deeply concerning.)

 

[CNT36]

rowing ? sailing ?

Pilot gig rowing.

 

[Jammy smears]

It's all got to start from birth hasn't it? Anything we do later in life to educate is just sticking a temporary plaster on a wound, there is no other way really to change this for the better. I don't mean just educating our sons from birth but daughters too. misogyny runs rife through both sexes, it's so insidiously ingrained into all of us. I have hopes though, I'd say each generation is more progressive than the previous. It is slow going but progress is being made.
Some see high divorce rates as a bad thing but as most divorces are instigated by women I can only see it as a good thing, women are finding their feet, their voices, their independance and realising that unlike their mothers, grandmothers, great grandmothers they don't have to put up with any shit and deserve better than a long and unhappy marriage. More work certainly needs to be done to give women the financial freedom to do this. Way too many trapped with children who don't have the financial means to leave, same with disabled women.
Off topic from the violence but I have lately got a real bee in my bonnet about social media posts about celebrities, like when tabloids publish articles and pictures of Madonna for example and yeah you get the odd shitty comment from men but most of the derogatory comments about Madonna not ageing gracefully (whatever the fuck that means) are coming from other women. We've got to do better, if we want men to treat us better and not just value us on what we look like then we have to show them the way by looking at the misogyny that is coming from inside the house and speak up whenever we see it.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Some see high divorce rates as a bad thing but as most divorces are instigated by women I can only see it as a good thing, women are finding their feet, their voices, their independance and realising that unlike their mothers, grandmothers, great grandmothers they don't have to put up with any shit and deserve better than a long and unhappy marriage. More work certainly needs to be done to give women the financial freedom to do this. Way too many trapped with children who don't have the financial means to leave, same with disabled women.

This. Divorce rates were lower in the past because people had no choice! I'd rather have a society where you can divorce "too easily" than one where you're trapped in an abusive marriage for the sake of appearances, or where if you were a woman you had to get married because you were limited in what jobs you could take and couldn't support yourself. And I notice it's often the self-styled "freedom fighters" (read libertarians) who usually bitch about higher divorce rates.

 

[InArduisFouette]

It's all got to start from birth hasn't it? Anything we do later in life to educate is just sticking a temporary plaster on a wound, there is no other way really to change this for the better. I don't mean just educating our sons from birth but daughters too. misogyny runs rife through both sexes, it's so insidiously ingrained into all of us. I have hopes though, I'd say each generation is more progressive than the previous. It is slow going but progress is being made.
Some see high divorce rates as a bad thing but as most divorces are instigated by women I can only see it as a good thing, women are finding their feet, their voices, their independance and realising that unlike their mothers, grandmothers, great grandmothers they don't have to put up with any shit and deserve better than a long and unhappy marriage. More work certainly needs to be done to give women the financial freedom to do this. Way too many trapped with children who don't have the financial means to leave, same with disabled women.
Off topic from the violence but I have lately got a real bee in my bonnet about social media posts about celebrities, like when tabloids publish articles and pictures of Madonna for example and yeah you get the odd shitty comment from men but most of the derogatory comments about Madonna not ageing gracefully (whatever the fuck that means) are coming from other women. We've got to do better, if we want men to treat us better and not just value us on what we look like then we have to show them the way by looking at the misogyny that is coming from inside the house and speak up whenever we see it.

and this is where those reinforcing the patriarchy often get upset when it is pointed out that the 'Gender Ideology' they rail against the Cis-het normative narrative pushed by the Church and Society for the past however many hundred years in Europe

 

[8ball]

Some see high divorce rates as a bad thing but as most divorces are instigated by women I can only see it as a good thing, women are finding their feet, their voices, their independance and realising that unlike their mothers, grandmothers, great grandmothers they don't have to put up with any shit and deserve better than a long and unhappy marriage.

I guess this is demonstrated by the very high divorce rate among women who marry other women.

 

[Coffeecup]

I think what story is saying here is that your reactions to some of the posts and some of the comments which are either criticism of your position / views or are comments you are choosing to take as a criticism directed at you rather than criticism of a group of people ( whether posters in the thread or a wider group in society ) is causing some kind of physiologically or psychologically arousing reaction ( fight or flight type arousal rather than sexual) which means your immediate reasction is one of agression or fear.

Acknowledging this is the first step, what you now need to consider is ' is acknowleding i might react like this is enough i just need to take a deep breath and read it again ' or is it setting off a trauma response or a disproprtionate anger response , which is where you might need to consider looking towards doing some more 'work' whether yourself as self directed study / reflection/ mindfullness on the topic to firm out your understanding of the topic and your own reactions or whether this is something you need to approach froma more clinical/ therapeutic angle ( and therefore going down the route of counselling / psychotherapy and specific apprioaches to managing trauma ( the stuff which is used in PTSD/CPTSD managmeent / treatment )

What is that?

 

[Knotted]

Porn is a systemic issue.

The porn industry certainly has systemic issues. And I have no doubt that porn is a product of systemic issues. Whether it is a causal factor in increasing VAWG is another question. I understand the evidence doesn't favour that causal relation.

 

[Pickman's model]

The porn industry certainly has systemic issues. And I have no doubt that porn is a product of systemic issues. Whether it is a causal factor in increasing VAWG is another question. I understand the evidence doesn't favour that causal relation.

You seem to be dancing about the vastly easier access to the most explicit porn that has come about over the last quarter century

 

[InArduisFouette]

You seem to be dancing about the vastly easier access to the most explicit porn that has come about over the last quarter century

tru dat

the internet serves it up much more readily than having to go to a sex shop / dodgy newsagent or relying on the hedgerow porn fairy

 

[Knotted]

You seem to be dancing about the vastly easier access to the most explicit porn that has come about over the last quarter century

I understand this has been studied numerous times over that period. The problem is with this stuff is that it's usually not open access, but my understanding is that there is a correlation between VAWG and violent porn but the causal relation has not been shown or at least not shown consistently and clearly. Correlation is not causation etc.

So yes porn is part of broader systemic issues, but it's not a good candidate for explaining increasing VAWG. Or at least that's my provisional position.

 

[Pickman's model]

I understand this has been studied numerous times over that period. The problem is with this stuff is that it's usually not open access, but my understanding is that there is a correlation between VAWG and violent porn but the causal relation has not been shown or at least not shown consistently and clearly. Correlation is not causation etc.

So yes porn is part of broader systemic issues, but it's not a good candidate for explaining increasing VAWG. Or at least that's my provisional position.

I think you've been looking at the wrong variables which might better be preconditions for vawg such as misogyny. And I'd say that's very much affected by the ready availability of porn

 

[InArduisFouette]

I understand this has been studied numerous times over that period. The problem is with this stuff is that it's usually not open access, but my understanding is that there is a correlation between VAWG and violent porn but the causal relation has not been shown or at least not shown consistently and clearly. Correlation is not causation etc.

So yes porn is part of broader systemic issues, but it's not a good candidate for explaining increasing VAWG. Or at least that's my provisional position.

I think you are right to be careful of ascribing a causal link without some really good evidence...

it's one of those things like the people who forget the consent aspect of some of the really quite full on BDSM stuff and try to equate that with VAWG in general

 

[Knotted]

I think you've been looking at the wrong variables which might better be preconditions for vawg such as misogyny. And I'd say that's very much affected by the ready availability of porn

Yes I think that's exactly it.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I think you've been looking at the wrong variables which might better be preconditions for vawg such as misogyny. And I'd say that's very much affected by the ready availability of porn

does porn create misogyny Or do misogynists feel the need to use porn ? ( or conversely becasue they have been told that porn is for betas they need good old sherman )

 

[Knotted]

I think you are right to be careful of ascribing a causal link without some really good evidence...

it's one of those things like the people who forget the consent aspect of some of the really quite full on BDSM stuff and try to equate that with VAWG in general

There's a similar question with violent video games. Do they produce violent impressionable teenage boys? At the very least that question needs to be broadened out a bit.

 

[smokedout]

There's a similar question with violent video games. Do they produce violent impressionable teenage boys? At the very least that question needs to be broadened out a bit.

I think it needs to be turned round completely. There isn't some malevolent misogynist shadowy group going round introducing violent porn and video games into society in order to harm women. The question should be why is so much violent porn/content being produced and consumed? What is it about society that is creating that demand?

I think it's understandable to examine contemporary phenomenas as a way to explain or mitigate the situation, but I don't think it can be the only solution. This is an endemic problem, it may manifest in different ways as culture and technology changes, it may even fluctuate in terms of how widespread it is, but the underlying problem of misogyny remains. Violence against women would not stop if porn is banned anymore than it stopped when it became socially unacceptable for men to physically punish their wives and children. It just began to manifest in new ways. That's what needs to be got to grips with I think, and why radical structural change needs to happen.

Which isn't to say we should ignore cultural/social elements which are potentially causing harm in the here and now. Culture both reflects and influences the society it emerges from. But it's just fire fighting without a wider analysis of what it is about how society is structured that is causing and has caused the relentless epidemic of male violence against women both historically and today.

 

[spring-peeper]

I've been searching for an article, but can't find it. I suck at doing google searches.

The main purpose of the article was warning parents to stop telling their young daughters that if a boy hits her, it means they like her. This is mainly for young girls entering puberty before boys.

This sets them up to believe violence is an acceptable way of showing affection.

 

[savoloysam]

If anyone would know it's them. Defund the police and that's half the problem solved.

 

[Red Cat]

I think it needs to be turned round completely. There isn't some malevolent misogynist shadowy group going round introducing violent porn and video games into society in order to harm women. The question should be why is so much violent porn/content being produced and consumed? What is it about society that is creating that demand?

I think it's understandable to examine contemporary phenomenas as a way to explain or mitigate the situation, but I don't think it can be the only solution. This is an endemic problem, it may manifest in different ways as culture and technology changes, it may even fluctuate in terms of how widespread it is, but the underlying problem of misogyny remains. Violence against women would not stop if porn is banned anymore than it stopped when it became socially unacceptable for men to physically punish their wives and children. It just began to manifest in new ways. That's what needs to be got to grips with I think, and why radical structural change needs to happen.

Which isn't to say we should ignore cultural/social elements which are potentially causing harm in the here and now. Culture both reflects and influences the society it emerges from. But it's just fire fighting without a wider analysis of what it is about how society is structured that is causing and has caused the relentless epidemic of male violence against women both historically and today.

Which is what I meant when I said porn is systemic.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think it needs to be turned round completely. There isn't some malevolent misogynist shadowy group going round introducing violent porn and video games into society in order to harm women. The question should be why is so much violent porn/content being produced and consumed? What is it about society that is creating that demand?

I think supply and demand are becoming increasingly decoupled in capitalism generally. Businesses decide what they're going to supply based on copying other businesses in the same field, which creates feedback loops that are largely unrelated to what anyone actually wants. With porn the current feedback loop is all the pseudo-incest shit. I don't think there has been a genuine spike in demand for this sort of content, it's just a random trend which ended up being amplified and amplified, but not because anyone actually wants it to. You might argue that the incest role play stuff is no more harmful for performers than anything else they would otherwise be doing, but it can't be good for consumers. Stepfathers are the worst perpetrators of sexual assault against girls (and children in general) but somehow that's been normalised to the point where it can be turned into entertainment. At best this could be triggering for victims, at worst it could make them more likely to accept and excuse their own abuse instead of seeking help.

With any online content there's also a thing where algorithms amplify more extreme things because that's what creates engagement. We see this with Andrew Tate and all that shit. The content is objectively bad. Tate is a very obviously pathetic and miserable man with the stupidest voice I've ever heard, but he gets reactions. Good or bad, doesn't really matter. If people react to something, you get more of it. This is a different setup to how supply and demand works with material goods, where there is a limiting factor of oh shit we've got warehouses full of product x that we can't shift, better try something else. Material goods have their own set of associated problems, but they generally don't have the same direct connection to real-world culture and behaviour.

I'm reluctant to draw a direct causal link from abusive porn to real-life abuse (although we shouldn't forget that porn is always real for someone) or from misogynistic entertainment content to misogyny in the real world, but there must be some connection. Most likely it goes both ways. But thinking about violence, the thing that creates most violence is violence. Not images of violence or violent games or toys with guns, but actual violence. I have known violent men who never used violence but who had a history of it and a capacity for it that they had to struggle against their whole lives. It always came from being a victim of violence, usually at a young age. To be a man with that innate tendency towards violence who is able to keep it under control and to make themselves into a safe person for others to be around, a loving and positive and protective presence in their lives, to me that's one of the most impressive human achievements.

 

[Derek S-H]

This is simply appalling:

'I was given a choice of bosses to sleep with': Life as a female paramedic

Three women share their stories of the toxic culture of sexual harassment and abuse of power within the ambulance service, and ask what can be done to change it.

news.sky.com

This is why I'm not particularly interested in intellectualising or theorising about toxic masculinity, we should just find practical ways to deal with it and dissect it later.