Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[story]

I try to be positive about exercise. I coach a sport and do not talk about appearance. Some of them have recently had a taste of success and want to push on to the next level and to do so have asked for homework. I have focused on the benefits of strength, fitness and skill of what they can do. I have told them it is good to do any exercise they enjoy then given them some specific options. I've tried to keep them away from the meat head and unrealistic standards of some Internet based fitness sites. Actually I'll have more of a think on this and see if there's anything useful I can do.

Following on from InArduisFouette ’s post about Rio Ferdinand, maybe you can get the boys to do “girl stuff” like yoga and ballet?

I really enjoy looking at clips of muscle bound men attempting the more supple sports. And there’s a great channel I look at which is male gymnasts attempting female gymnastic disciplines.

It’s really interesting to me to see how different physical skill sets are valued differently in boys and girls (for e.g. strength of force Vs agility and core strength)

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Rimbaud

Thanks for that good post.

When I said the thing you quoted I left out the bit about assuming that there are also men who are reading and thinking and - for whatever reason - choosing not to post.

But we all know there are men on here who don’t read these threads at all, and those are most likely to be the ones who dismiss this issue as either not a big deal, or nothing to do with them. Those are the men who really do need to be engaged. They’re representative of the larger social issue we’re trying to get to grips with. But how? I guess it’s got to be a six monkeys thing : as things change, however slowly, a tipping point will be reached and they’ll find that it’s no longer possible to keep their head in the sand.

I wonder if Urban men choose not to engage on these sorts of posts because they don't want to be seen as 'taking over' womens' issues? Or they might be accused of mansplaining, or something like that?

 

[Rompipalle]

I think this thread is probably not one in which I feel very comfortable. Much as I abhor all forms of violence and I think it is a topic which very much ought to be discussed, I don’t much care for the tone of some of the comments and the attempts at oneupmanship, so I’ll bow out and leave others to it. I don’t want anything I think or say to be misinterpreted.

 

[story]

I wonder if Urban men choose not to engage on these sorts of posts because they don't want to be seen as 'taking over' womens' issues? Or they might be accused of mansplaining, or something like that?

There is some of that for sure. And I think those men largely self identify as such by making the occasional post.


But there are others who are conspicuous by their absence. They’ve rarely, if ever, posted on any of these threads going back over the years we’ve been having this discussion.

 

[Rompipalle]

Fwiw I thought you asking for clarity about the term was legitimate. I also agree that the term is disparaging at best, and probably worse

But imo I think we can leave that, and the stuff about whether or not martial arts is a real thing, for another time/thread.

Can we try to allow the current discussion to develop now please.

Thank you, story.

 

[story]

I think this thread is probably not one in which I feel very comfortable. Much as I abhor all forms of violence and I think it is a topic which very much ought to be discussed, I don’t much care for the tone of some of the comments and the attempts at oneupmanship, so I’ll bow out and leave others to it. I don’t want anything I think or say to be misinterpreted.

Why not keep reading?

Some of the discomfort is probably about the tone of this place, which is pretty robust and in yer face. It’s just how it is and actually much more gentle than it was in the past. Baby eating anarchists are still pretty full on even as we get older.

But is some of your discomfort possibly about stuff that needs to be paid attention to for yourself?

 

[danny la rouge]

I wonder if Urban men choose not to engage on these sorts of posts because they don't want to be seen as 'taking over' womens' issues? Or they might be accused of mansplaining, or something like that?

Probably a factor. For example I’m currently self-conscious that I’m currently one of the top ten posters on this thread and male. I’m very aware that I post a lot and say a lot. And that this is something men do.

I’m trying to balance listening with my responsibility to contribute, and (yeah, I know, poor me!) it’s a difficult balance to strike given my socialisation over 6 decades of being a man in a patriarchal society.

 

[Rompipalle]

Why not keep reading?

Some of the discomfort is probably about the tone of this place, which is pretty robust and in yer face. It’s just how it is and actually much more gentle than it was in the past. Baby eating anarchists are still pretty full on even as we get older.

But is some of your discomfort possibly about stuff that needs to be paid attention to for yourself?

Not sure what you mean.

 

[editor]

I apologise. However it's interesting that you didn't have a go at her for her post deriding my comments. She's followed me from another thread. One rule for one....

You're now banned from this thread.

 

[Elpenor]

I wonder if Urban men choose not to engage on these sorts of posts because they don't want to be seen as 'taking over' womens' issues? Or they might be accused of mansplaining, or something like that?

More or less this is my position. I find it difficult to articulate my views on what the solution is for society as a whole is, partly as I just don't know.

I’m happy to read and learn, and react to posts I find helpful or interesting.

 

[Santino]

You're now banned from this thread.

That's a very.... male response.

 

[Knotted]

Just from a stats pov and not directed at anyone here.

I do wonder how much the increase in vawg is real and how much is to do with better reporting. Not that I'm taking a position on this or that I'm saying these things are reported better these days (or ever) nor am I saying the figures aren't shocking, but the stats in terms of increases are inherently questionable because of underreporting. Maybe things were always this bad. Again, not my position, but at a glance this all looks a little shaky to me. Not junk by any means, just questionable.

The other thing I question is how much the problem is down to (extreme) porn or social influencers. Not that these things aren't repulsive, but maybe the causal link is in the other direction . Maybe Andrew Tate is popular because there has been a deterioration in attitudes towards girls and women not the other way round.

Non of the above is a position, just questions. But I am suspicious of media narratives that blame social influencers, because that's actually a relatively easy fix if it is the driving force of the problem. I think it would be more productive to look at systemic issues and see influencers and porn in that systemic context (again not directed at anyone here).

Fwiw, my hunch is that the immediate problem with younger men and boys is more to do with online communities. Incels, mgtow etc. it's there that certain ideas have crysalised. And these influencers are playing to a ready made audience. A youtuber I follow (FD Signifier) recently made the point that incel related content (either pro or anti) is the easiest way to get views and engagement.

 

[story]

Not sure what you mean.

I think this thread is probably not one in which I feel very comfortable. Much as I abhor all forms of violence and I think it is a topic which very much ought to be discussed, I don’t much care for the tone of some of the comments and the attempts at oneupmanship, so I’ll bow out and leave others to it. I don’t want anything I think or say to be misinterpreted.

You say you don’t feel comfortable on this thread.
You say that may be because you don’t care for the tone and comments and attempts at oneupmanship
You say you don’t want to be misrepresented.

Some of that is going to be down to being a n00b on here: getting accustomed to the way this place conducts debate. We’re far less full on than we used to be. Politics used to be a bear pit. It was very hard going, but the quality of debate was also very good. Lots of us got our arse handed to us on a plate, and lots of us learned how to debate, and also learned a lot and got our politics sorted out.

There was also plenty of personal attack and that was dealt with by fellow posters and then with modding as a last resort.

Some people prefer not to get involved in discussion and debate. That’s fine, there are plenty of other forums (some of them are hidden til you do your 50 posts and three weeks or whatever).

But if you want to post on threads where tough issues are being dealt with, you’ll have to get used to the way it’s done here, or just read along and not post. As danny la rouge and Elpenor said, some people don’t post but make reactions.

So some of your reluctance might just be about getting a handle on the house style and culture here. If you don’t like it that’s too bad. We do need new posters and I hope all/ some of you will stay

But, it may also be that some of what’s being discussed here is hitting a nerve for you and making you feel uncomfortable. If that’s the case then you need to be aware of that and pay attention to it, because that’s exactly where change happens. And we need change.

 

[story]

You're now banned from this thread.

I understand why it was done but I’m not sure it was necessary at this point.

It would have been good to see if they fixed up before banning them. Especially for a new poster.

 

[editor]

I understand why it was done but I’m not sure it was necessary at this point.

It would have been good to see if they fixed up before banning them. Especially for a new poster.

They're only banned from this one thread but in my view - and those of the people who were reporting their content - they were becoming far too disruptive on such a sensitive topic,

 

[Callie]

I think this thread is probably not one in which I feel very comfortable. Much as I abhor all forms of violence and I think it is a topic which very much ought to be discussed, I don’t much care for the tone of some of the comments and the attempts at oneupmanship, so I’ll bow out and leave others to it. I don’t want anything I think or say to be misinterpreted.

It's a very emotive subject and brings out strong feelings and reactions in a lot of people. If you can understand that, see it for what it is and not engage with those aspects we can have discussions.

Everyone can do that.

 

[Callie]

But there are others who are conspicuous by their absence. They’ve rarely, if ever, posted on any of these threads going back over the years we’ve been having this discussion.

I think loads of posters read and don't post on these threads. They are hard work and often upsetting and difficult to engage with.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Can we please stop banging on about women learning martial arts to protect themselves (whatever terminology you use for whatever martial art).

It is along the same lines as don't go out after dark, don't wear a short skirt, it's your fault because you went out after dark in a short skirt and didn't know fucking martial arts that you got attacked - hello, hello, is there anyone with any basic sense here on this thread? Would you please listen to yourselves, saying that women should learn martial arts to be safe is the same sort of victim blaming bullshit as don't go out after dark and don't wear a short skirt.

Fuck the fuck off with that crap.

exactly , hence the reason my initial challenge was robust , as you very correctly point out it;s on the route to , if not at victim blaming , add in the difficultires with skills retention and the actual application of hands on techniques whether martial arts 'self defence' or as part of the hands on bits of 'Officer Safety ' / 'Prevention and managmeent of violence and agression ) across Law enforcment or Health and Social care

 

[Rompipalle]

You say you don’t feel comfortable on this thread.
You say that may be because you don’t care for the tone and comments and attempts at oneupmanship
You say you don’t want to be misrepresented.

Some of that is going to be down to being a n00b on here: getting accustomed to the way this place conducts debate. We’re far less full on than we used to be. Politics used to be a bear pit. It was very hard going, but the quality of debate was also very good. Lots of us got our arse handed to us on a plate, and lots of us learned how to debate, and also learned a lot and got our politics sorted out.

There was also plenty of personal attack and that was dealt with by fellow posters and then with modding as a last resort.

Some people prefer not to get involved in discussion and debate. That’s fine, there are plenty of other forums (some of them are hidden til you do your 50 posts and three weeks or whatever).

But if you want to post on threads where tough issues are being dealt with, you’ll have to get used to the way it’s done here, or just read along and not post. As danny la rouge said, some people don’t post but make reactions.

So some of your reluctance might just be about getting a handle on the house style and culture here. If you don’t like it that’s too bad. We do need new posters and I hope all/ some of you will stay

But, it may also be that some of what’s being discussed here is hitting a nerve for you and making you feel uncomfortable. If that’s the case then you need to be aware of that and pay attention to it, because that’s exactly where change happens. And we need change.

No, what is being discussed is not hitting any nerve for me, as I have thankfully never been in the situation where I have been vulnerable or subjected to any form of violence.

My discomfort stems, to some extent, from some of the “jargon” being bandied around in relation to the subject. Whilst I am a well-educated person, I am clearly out of touch with a lot of contemporary terms and concepts in sociological issues, so I don't wish to appear ignorant or to inadvertently cause offence.

I do have my own views on the subject matter but for now I think I would prefer not to participate.

Thank you for taking the time to answer though. It’s appreciated.

 

[Epona]

They're only banned from this one thread but in my view - and those of the people who were reporting their content - they were becoming far too disruptive on such a sensitive topic,

And having a very weird go at me on a completely unrelated thread too, although I hadn't realised it was the same person until they accused me of "following" them to this thread (ie. I just looked at new posts and I post on many threads, if anyone thinks I'm following them because I post on the same threads as them at 5am they are very unclear about how message board activity works)

 

[Red Cat]

Just from a stats pov and not directed at anyone here.

I do wonder how much the increase in vawg is real and how much is to do with better reporting. Not that I'm taking a position on this or that I'm saying these things are reported better these days (or ever) nor am I saying the figures aren't shocking, but the stats in terms of increases are inherently questionable because of underreporting. Maybe things were always this bad. Again, not my position, but at a glance this all looks a little shaky to me. Not junk by any means, just questionable.

The other thing I question is how much the problem is down to (extreme) porn or social influencers. Not that these things aren't repulsive, but maybe the causal link is in the other direction . Maybe Andrew Tate is popular because there has been a deterioration in attitudes towards girls and women not the other way round.

Non of the above is a position, just questions. But I am suspicious of media narratives that blame social influencers, because that's actually a relatively easy fix if it is the driving force of the problem. I think it would be more productive to look at systemic issues and see influencers and porn in that systemic context (again not directed at anyone here).

Fwiw, my hunch is that the immediate problem with younger men and boys is more to do with online communities. Incels, mgtow etc. it's there that certain ideas have crysalised. And these influencers are playing to a ready made audience. A youtuber I follow (FD Signifier) recently made the point that incel related content (either pro or anti) is the easiest way to get views and engagement.

Porn is a systemic issue.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Following on from InArduisFouette ’s post about Rio Ferdinand, maybe you can get the boys to do “girl stuff” like yoga and ballet?

I really enjoy looking at clips of muscle bound men attempting the more supple sports. And there’s a great channel I look at which is male gymnasts attempting female gymnastic disciplines.

It’s really interesting to me to see how different physical skill sets are valued differently in boys and girls (for e.g. strength of force Vs agility and core strength)

there's a joke / meme about the guys who do ballet ( and contemporary /'modern' ) dance about ' real men don't lift weights they lift ballerinas'... but there is the whole perception of men in ballet being homosexual , there are quite a lot of gay men in ballet - but also for some reason it;s seen as lot more respectably and normal for men in ballet to be public aobut their sexuality compared to the women - it's not public knowledge acknowledged by companies who a lot of the women are in long term committed ( and often married ) relationships with...

what you say about the guys in gymnastics attempting some of the 'female' disciplines does show up the differing priorities there and how far they diverge - where a lot of women who dance ballet can do everything the guys do other than the full lifts unless it's the tallest girl in the company lifting the shortest ... and many of the guys although they keep it quite can actually do some pointe work ( and alot of the younger guys can do more - as vocational treaining starts using pointe for the lads as part of their Strength and conditioning )

... another interesting semi -anecdote about gymnastics is that while ballet and contemporary dance training prizes symmetry of skills i.e. you are expected in class / assessments / exams to be able to demonstrate a skill on 'both sides' ( i.e. leading it with either foot) gymnastics especially Rythmic and the floor exercises in Artistic will just choreogrph things to be strong side only

 

[InArduisFouette]

Not sure what you mean.

I think what story is saying here is that your reactions to some of the posts and some of the comments which are either criticism of your position / views or are comments you are choosing to take as a criticism directed at you rather than criticism of a group of people ( whether posters in the thread or a wider group in society ) is causing some kind of physiologically or psychologically arousing reaction ( fight or flight type arousal rather than sexual) which means your immediate reasction is one of agression or fear.

Acknowledging this is the first step, what you now need to consider is ' is acknowleding i might react like this is enough i just need to take a deep breath and read it again ' or is it setting off a trauma response or a disproprtionate anger response , which is where you might need to consider looking towards doing some more 'work' whether yourself as self directed study / reflection/ mindfullness on the topic to firm out your understanding of the topic and your own reactions or whether this is something you need to approach froma more clinical/ therapeutic angle ( and therefore going down the route of counselling / psychotherapy and specific apprioaches to managing trauma ( the stuff which is used in PTSD/CPTSD managmeent / treatment )

 

[CNT36]

Following on from InArduisFouette ’s post about Rio Ferdinand, maybe you can get the boys to do “girl stuff” like yoga and ballet?

I really enjoy looking at clips of muscle bound men attempting the more supple sports. And there’s a great channel I look at which is male gymnasts attempting female gymnastic disciplines.

It’s really interesting to me to see how different physical skill sets are valued differently in boys and girls (for e.g. strength of force Vs agility and core strength)

What we do is a traditionally male sport but is actually predominantly female at the moment. In the junior section girls outnumber boys about 2:1. I can't get them to do anything really. We have usually one or two hours if sport specific training a week anything else is in their time.

I had actually planned to highlight the benefits one girls dancing might bring to the sport. I'll do that louder. I have had in mind sending out some yoga based workouts. Generally I treat the boys and girls the same and events are not split in to genders until the adults. At a recent championship we targeted the best girls category and won. Everyone races there is an overall winner then those mixed and girl crews who progress the furthest also get a trophy. Next year I intend to take most of the same girls beat the best mixed crew and try for second overall. First would be nice but the winners are consistently ridicuosly good. I explained it to the one boy who would have been justifiably annoyed to have been left out and he was cool with it.

 

[Red Cat]

I think loads of posters read and don't post on these threads. They are hard work and often upsetting and difficult to engage with.

I actually hate them. There's always an idea that there should be some kind of outcome. And so it's frustrating when there isn't and then there's an attempt to find an answer to that too. Why? Who didn't join in? Who did and in what way? etc.

 

[existentialist]

Funny seeing you here! You conveniently turn up just to have a go at my posts in this thread. How coincidental.

I think you're starting to think that this is all about you. I'd recommend that you stop doing that.

 

[Red Cat]

I think what story is saying here is that your reactions to some of the posts and some of the comments which are either criticism of your position / views or are comments you are choosing to take as a criticism directed at you rather than criticism of a group of people ( whether posters in the thread or a wider group in society ) is causing some kind of physiologically or psychologically arousing reaction ( fight or flight type arousal rather than sexual) which means your immediate reasction is one of agression or fear.

Acknowledging this is the first step, what you now need to consider is ' is acknowleding i might react like this is enough i just need to take a deep breath and read it again ' or is it setting off a trauma response or a disproprtionate anger response , which is where you might need to consider looking towards doing some more 'work' whether yourself as self directed study / reflection/ mindfullness on the topic to firm out your understanding of the topic and your own reactions or whether this is something you need to approach froma more clinical/ therapeutic angle ( and therefore going down the route of counselling / psychotherapy and specific apprioaches to managing trauma ( the stuff which is used in PTSD/CPTSD managmeent / treatment )

This place can be aggressive and enacts the same in group out group dynamics as any other group. It is a threat to the outers, that's its function, and a fight-flight response might be healthy.

 

[existentialist]

I wonder if Urban men choose not to engage on these sorts of posts because they don't want to be seen as 'taking over' womens' issues? Or they might be accused of mansplaining, or something like that?

On most threads on topics like this, I read, but don't engage. For various reasons - usually, because I don't really have anything to say, but also the temperature of the thread can sometimes make it feel like I don't particularly want to venture into it.

The men who most badly need reaching aren't going to be reading threads like these, which is why I think it's important that we all become advocates for challenging entrenched attitudes "out there".

 

[Aladdin]

I think this thread is probably not one in which I feel very comfortable. Much as I abhor all forms of violence and I think it is a topic which very much ought to be discussed, I don’t much care for the tone of some of the comments and the attempts at oneupmanship, so I’ll bow out and leave others to it. I don’t want anything I think or say to be misinterpreted.

This place is like this...
Robust...as story says.
But it is a great community.. once we all get to know each other.
You'd be surprised how good people are to each other..and the support in real life when the chips are down is really something else.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Just from a stats pov and not directed at anyone here.

I do wonder how much the increase in vawg is real and how much is to do with better reporting. Not that I'm taking a position on this or that I'm saying these things are reported better these days (or ever) nor am I saying the figures aren't shocking, but the stats in terms of increases are inherently questionable because of underreporting. Maybe things were always this bad. Again, not my position, but at a glance this all looks a little shaky to me. Not junk by any means, just questionable.

The other thing I question is how much the problem is down to (extreme) porn or social influencers. Not that these things aren't repulsive, but maybe the causal link is in the other direction . Maybe Andrew Tate is popular because there has been a deterioration in attitudes towards girls and women not the other way round.

Non of the above is a position, just questions. But I am suspicious of media narratives that blame social influencers, because that's actually a relatively easy fix if it is the driving force of the problem. I think it would be more productive to look at systemic issues and see influencers and porn in that systemic context (again not directed at anyone here).

Fwiw, my hunch is that the immediate problem with younger men and boys is more to do with online communities. Incels, mgtow etc. it's there that certain ideas have crysalised. And these influencers are playing to a ready made audience. A youtuber I follow (FD Signifier) recently made the point that incel related content (either pro or anti) is the easiest way to get views and engagement.

VAWG , racist / religiously motivated abuse and violence , homophobic/ transphobic violence and abuse does seem to have a 'how much of the increase is down to reporting' factor and it;s ironically sometimes an increase in the levles of abuse that spark the increase in rpoerting and /or particular angles of coverage on the topic ( e.g. VAWG where the perpetrators are either bosses e.g ' me too' or it;s none domestic VAWG pwhere the perp is a cop , e.g. Brianna Ghey's murder as an example of transphobic violence being brought into the spotlight due othe age of all involved and gender of the perps - where the yong woman convicted of Brianna;s murder why described by the Judger as ' the driving force' behind the murder , rather than the young man who was co-defendant )


I agree with the rise of the influencer but there are also parallels to be drawn wit the rise of other extremist groups across history , it;s just the channels of distribution are different and much more ever present and insdious - especially with click bait adriven algoritms on social media and streaming sites like youtube/ vimeo