VAR and the Premier League

[agricola]

Yeah, it does seem to be the rule is the issue.

Feel like people'll just complain about any changed rule, too. Add more interpretation, bring in "intent", then you're going to have inconsistent decisions and people saying "that wasn't given last week".

Different people just gonna get upset about different things, and probably some of the same ones too.

This uninformed media talk about rule changes and interpretations is a real problem though - handball has (for at least all the time I've been watching football) required that the contact be deliberate.

Ward's and Lindelof's contact between hand and ball probably was deliberate (though down to reflex actions to block the ball rather than conscious ones) and probably would have been given once technology allowed these sort of offences to be picked up. Today's however should never have been given under the current rules, given that it couldn't have been deliberate.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Different people just gonna get upset about different things, and probably some of the same ones too.

Well one way to unite everyone is to have a sensible rule applied consistently by competent people.

The other is to have a rule that came to some FIFA bod in a dream, applied by 1st year students at the Dido Harding School of Competence, adjusted by Gavin Williamson's algorithm.

Ant and Dec don't think that was a Newcastle penalty, and it's far from the first this season.

 

[belboid]

This uninformed media talk about rule changes and interpretations is a real problem though - handball has (for at least all the time I've been watching football) required that the contact be deliberate.

That was done away with last season. And then amended this one, so that ‘accidental handball will only be punished if it occurs “immediately” before a goal was scored.‘

Haven’t seen today’s incident, so can’t comment on whether said rule was implemented fairly.

 

[Lord Camomile]

This uninformed media talk about rule changes and interpretations is a real problem though - handball has (for at least all the time I've been watching football) required that the contact be deliberate.

Ward's and Lindelof's contact between hand and ball probably was deliberate (though down to reflex actions to block the ball rather than conscious ones) and probably would have been given once technology allowed these sort of offences to be picked up. Today's however should never have been given under the current rules, given that it couldn't have been deliberate.

So people would argue about it.

a sensible rule

applied consistently

by competent people.

Three more things for people to argue about.

 

[strung out]

I am opposed to VAR in almost all forms, and the new handball law is horrendous, but you can't deny that virtually every bad call arising from them is objectively very funny.

 

[ska invita]

Just saw the spurs match on motd. I'm going on strike... literally have no desire to watch another game until something is done. It's not even about VAR , it's about ridiculous decisions. Sick of football anyway, let it die. Fuming

 

[strung out]

Just saw the spurs match on motd. I'm going on strike... literally have no desire to watch another game until something is done. It's not even about VAR , it's about ridiculous decisions. Sick of football anyway, let it die. Fuming

Reactions like this completely justify my post above and make me think that VAR and the new handball law are maybe a good thing?

 

[Dandred]

There should be intent, these recent changes seem too much.

 

[ska invita]

Watch video, agree 100

 

[Lord Camomile]

There should be intent, these recent changes seem too much.

And how exactly does one judge intent?

Watch video, agree 100

"morally corrupt"..?

 

[ska invita]

Top flight football is a game of narrow margins. Scoring a "point" (goal) is a massive moment in a game. By allowing a handball/penalty with someone looking the opposite direction, zero intent, zero knowledge of what's happening, it takes away all tension and justice in the value of a goal. The game loses all value...I don't want to watch it

 

[ska invita]

"morally corrupt"..?

Picking on his use of the word morally is exactly equivalent to a VAR non-handball penalty

 

[two sheds]

tbf though you could turn your back and throw out your arms to try to block a shot and then it'd be "I wasn't looking - how can that be a penalty?'

sneaky fuckers footballers

 

[ska invita]

And how exactly does one judge intent?

The way referees have done so for decades. Helps if the player is looking at the ball and it's not kicked at the back of his arm in a direct away from goal

 

[Lord Camomile]

Picking on his use of the word morally is exactly equivalent to a VAR non-handball penalty

Fair enough. I wasn't calling the whole thing into question, was just something of an aside as I thought "morally corrupt" was a questionable phrase in context.

The way referees have done so for decades.

...and have been being abused and questioned and argued about for decades, too.

 

[two sheds]

Match of the day pointed out how Spurs? are defending against shots against goal now with arms down behind their backs has to be the way to go.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Genuine question: why is intent important in handball when it isn't in a foul? If a defender mistimes a tackle it doesn't matter whether he intended to bring the player down - he brought the player down, it was a foul, so it's a free-kick or penalty.

Likewise when a player is just a bit clumsy and bundles into a opposition player. He didn't mean it, it was an accident, but it's still a foul.

 

[skyscraper101]

It is interesting how VAR in virtually every other sport has been roundly applauded for its ability to assist referees and produce correct decisions.

Yet, in football VAR seems to have created more discontent than ever. TBH I'm so glad I couldn't give a shit what happens in the PL these days. It was ruined for a long time before VAR came in.

 

[Badgers]

It is interesting how VAR in virtually every other sport has been roundly applauded for its ability to assist referees and produce correct decisions.

Yet, in football VAR seems to have created more discontent than ever. TBH I'm so glad I couldn't give a shit what happens in the PL these days. It was ruined for a long time before VAR came in.

We are fucking shit (#worldbeating) at everything aren't we

 

[skyscraper101]

Not saying it shouldn't be a thing. Clearly it should've been a thing years ago (e.g. Lampard disallolwed goal v Germany in 2010), but how VAR decisions can be so consistently on the wrong side of opinion in football vs. virtually every other sport is astonishing.

 

[two sheds]

are they consistently on the wrong side though? There have been some high profile ones but surely some 19 out of 20 are shown to be correct.

 

[skyscraper101]

are they consistently on the wrong side though? There have been some high profile ones but surely some 19 out of 20 are shown to be correct.

Maybe not consistently, but often? I'm just going by the number of times I see spluttering's of outrage and the inevitable VAR is ruining football discussion. I've not seen it in any other sport to the same degree.

 

[two sheds]

that may be a function of the supporters who have a tradition of hating refs whatever decision they give.

Rules, too, though. Rugby is the one I always compare it to, and there's virtually no questioning of referees in that because players get the 10 yard penalty if they question too much, and the good quality of VAR - and it's visible to everyone as the ref is studying it.

 

[Badgers]

 

[Lord Camomile]

Certainly feels like there are more contentious decisions, even if proportionally they're still actually in the minority within the sport itself.

Wonder if that's to do with the types of incident? For stuff like tennis it's just goalline technology, which few seem to have a problem with (except, infamously, Jonathan Pearce), and then in cricket it's mostly timing or just trusting the LBW... thing.

that may be a function of the supporters who have a tradition of hating refs whatever decision they give.

Rules, too, though. Rugby is the one I always compare it to, and there's virtually no questioning of referees in that because players get the 10 yard penalty if they question too much, and the good quality of VAR - and it's visible to everyone as the ref is studying it.

Rugby probably is the best analogue, as you've got unclear incidents of 'foul play'. As you say though, doesn't seem to get the same sort of vitriol at all.

I do wonder if it's also just down to it being our 'national sport', so all controversies are magnified simply because so many more people are talking about them.

 

[two sheds]

true, and rugby you've got much greater chance of life-changing injuries so referee and VAR decisions are that much more important.

 

[Maltin]

Genuine question: why is intent important in handball when it isn't in a foul? If a defender mistimes a tackle it doesn't matter whether he intended to bring the player down - he brought the player down, it was a foul, so it's a free-kick or penalty.

Likewise when a player is just a bit clumsy and bundles into a opposition player. He didn't mean it, it was an accident, but it's still a foul.

Other fouls tend to involve the offending player doing something whereas with handball you can be standing around, minding your own business and someone kicks the ball at you which hits your arm and gets a foul which seems unfair. It seems the lawmakers wanted to remove judgement from handball decisions but it’s just created different issues. Yes, the earlier application of the law led to inconsistency but I’m not sure that there was a desire for major change.

 

[Badgers]

with handball you can be standing around, minding your own business and someone kicks the ball at you

The Man City defenders?

 

[two sheds]

Go Leicester

Eta for the benefit of anyone reading this in 20 years when people are still complaining that VAR is still crap: Man City 2 Leicester 5 (Vardy 3)

 

[editor]

Match of the day pointed out how Spurs? are defending against shots against goal now with arms down behind their backs has to be the way to go.

Highlights here:



That penalty decision was ludicrous.