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US election 2012

butchersapron said:
Well, i posted on the basis that their vote would safeguard something - as your first post suggested would happen. That's a really important point as it goes. The lesser evil vote relies on that safeguarding happening - without there is nothing. What's your views on that?
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Do you not think a Democrat administration is better for gay rights, amongs other things, than a Repub one?
 
Vintage Paw said:
Materially - look back at the link and quote I posted earlier. People aren't just voting for the president today, they are voting on a whole host of other State ballots, which include electing SC justices, congresspeople, voting on specific provisions, etc. Who is it that you are suggesting should abstain from voting? It's going to be those on the left, or centre left. The Republicans and others on the right are still going to vote. Having Republican-led state governments and legislatures - along with a Republican president who will appoint 2-3 Republican Supreme Court justices during his term - will have a very real effect on people's lives. It will continue what has already been happening in those Republican majority States already (again, see my earlier link for an example).

Again, it's very, very easy to sit back with your impeccable principles and say what all these people should be doing, but it's completely ignoring how they are experiencing these things themselves.
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Sorry, where did i say that people should abstain from voting? My point was that with nothing at stake for commentators here the absolute cave-in to the worst sort of soppy lesser evilism is rank - you can't even muster rhetorical radicalism anymore. The local ballots have nothing to do with how people vote - if they do - in the presidential election. You can vote in them and not the big one. So, did you join labour too?
 
butchersapron said:
Well, i posted on the basis that their vote would safeguard something - as your first post suggested would happen. That's a really important point as it goes. The lesser evil vote relies on that safeguarding happening - without there is nothing. What's your views on that?
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I'm not sure. There's clearly a smaller and smaller gap between all western political parties, but I take the point made by someone like Darren Redstar, who said there was enough difference between Labour and Tory for him to want Labour to win. I can't say whether voting in Labour actually has resulted in lesser evil, and my uncertainty also makes me slow to condemn people who say tehre's some small difference that they think is important. Myself I think the main important point is to build up self-organisation independent of the main political parties, since chasing the lesser evil only results in parties having an easy time following their main interest - supporting the rich.
 
Random said:
I'm not sure. There's clearly a smaller and smaller gap between all western political parties, but I take the point made by someone like Darren Redstar, who said there was enough difference between Labour and Tory for him to want Labour to win. I can't say whether voting in Labour actually has resulted in lesser evil, and my uncertainty also makes me slow to condemn people who say tehre's some small difference that they think is important. Myself I think the main important point is to build up self-organisation independent of the main political parties, since chasing the lesser evil only results in parties having an easy time following their main interest - supporting the rich.
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Darren joined labour he didn't just want them to win. The old line is that there's an inch of difference but it's the inch we live in. People with no say trying to push people into the funnel of this game works against this self-organising that you thirst for.
 
butchersapron said:
People with no say trying to push people into the funnel of this game works against this self-organising that you yearn for.
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My point is that people who simply vote, based on their analysis of one particular issue, shouldn't be written off as having been "funneled" into supporting the parties body and soul.
 
Random said:
My point is that people who simply vote, based on their analysis of one particular issue, shouldn't be written off as having been "funneled" supporting the parties body and soul.
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I'm not writing off the voters, i'm suggesting something about the people who argue for that funneling!
 
My position is also that there's something far more sincere about someone like Darren who admits he just wants to fight for crumbs, and someone like articul8, who says that fully supporting Labour can be part of a grand socialist transformation project.
 
Vintage Paw said:
All I see here is a massive amount of contempt for anyone who hasn't managed to be as enlightened as the amazing people posting here who have opted out of the current political system. There's no empathy. There's no compassion. There's no real caring about the conditions people live in. All there is is contempt, in almost equal measure as the contempt you feel for the politicians.
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Exactly! The disregard for a real life or REAL (POSITIVE) change is astounding in America now. It is as if everyone's gone insane and is clinging tenaciously on to the only reality they know.
 
Random said:
I'm not really arguing with you, I'm simply re-stating my original point, to clarify it based on your question.
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No worries, i was just reacting really to the condescension contained in the argument that if you make a wider point you have contempt for the mass of americans - and the hiding behind those americans (whilst also speaking for them) that this argument relies on.
 
butchersapron said:
No worries, i was just reacting really to the condescension contained in the argument that if you make a wider point you have contempt for the mass of americans - and the hiding behind those americans (whilst also speaking for them) that this argument relies on.
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I was saying the same thing to VintP on the previous page imo:

"It's also possibly to express contempt by saying, like you did, that people are ground into the dirt, and so will vote. About half of US voters will not vote; and that's based on a very rational understanding of the US political system. They're way ahead of the liberals. What's lacking is any sort of alternative that does offer a chance for "control and input"."
 
I'm off to go vote.

we have two interesting ballot questions this year. One about physician assisted suicide, the other about medical marijuana.
Also, I am very concerned about senator Scott wanker Brown getting re-elected.
 
Miss Caphat said:
I'm off to go vote.

we have two interesting ballot questions this year. One about physician assisted suicide, the other about medical marijuana.
Also, I am very concerned about senator Scott wanker Brown getting re-elected.
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Yea, get that bastard Brown out. I could never understand the people of Mass. voting him in. Warren belongs in Teddy Kennedy's seat.
 
TruXta said:
It's a simple question. You asked for what would be materially safeguarded. Gay rights is one answer to that. Do you not think gay rights are better safeguarded by Dems than Repubs?
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Of course they're not.

I'm not voting, and I encourage everyone else not to do the same.
 
TruXta said:
Care to explain why? Not the not voting.
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Because it gives credibility to an irretrievably corrupt system.

Because a vote is an endorsement, and I think Obama is a mass murderer.

Because it doesn't make any difference, and it is mischievous to pretend that it does by participating.

Mind you, it's never an easy decision, and I rethink it every time....
 
phildwyer said:
Because it gives credibility to an irretrievably corrupt system.

Because a vote is an endorsement, and I think Obama is a mass murderer.

Because it doesn't make any difference, and it is mischievous to pretend that it does by participating.

Mind you, it's never an easy decision, and I rethink it every time....
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I meant specifically on gay rights, but fairy nuff.
 
TomUS said:
Yea, get that bastard Brown out. I could never understand the people of Mass. voting him in. Warren belongs in Teddy Kennedy's seat.
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yeah, I did not get that at all. We are the state who voted for Romneycare, which was actually Ted Kennedy-care, which as we all know became the foundation for Obamacare but the whole election of Brown was based on his assertion that he would vote against Obamacare. :confused: Or something like that. It was a pretty ugly race too, and I lost some "friends" during that election
 
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