Upstairs At The Department Store (restaurant)

[Gramsci]

It attracts minimal opposition tbh.

On what do you base this?

 

[Gramsci]

It attracts minimal opposition tbh.

When I talk to people in Loughborough Junction they really resent whats happening to Brixton. When I talk to people at work they say same thing about what's happening to London.

This isn't just about a few posters on Urban.

I've said this before.

Some posters here like you just don't get it.

The resentment is out there amongst a large amount of Londoners.

Fortunately it's expressed as resentment against the well off. Its not about immigration or race.

 

[Rushy]

I'm delighted to learn that activities and entertainment equivalent to those laid on by this elitist and exclusive venue are widely available for free all over Brixton.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm delighted to learn that activities and entertainment equivalent to those laid on by this elitist and exclusive venue are widely available for free all over Brixton.

I'm so pleased for you. Made your day I assume.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm delighted to learn that activities and entertainment equivalent to those laid on by this elitist and exclusive venue are widely available for free all over Brixton.

Now you know this you won't have to spend all that money on membership. Good thing it been pointed out to you. Forum has saved you money.

 

[whatwilldid]

As someone who earns much less than thirty grand I do think £240 pound a year just to go on the roof is elitist.

Squires are a business that moved to Brixton. Fair enough. They didn't do it quietly. They made big thing about it.

I did hear guest memberships for roof terrace were given out to some local people. Not sure if this is correct.

Seems to me Squires did a good PR campaign when they came to Brixton. They aren't stupid. They know from long involvement with high end projects in London that they have been involved with that gentrification is an issue. So when they came to Brixton they have been quite clever.

I was at Department store when it opened as it had Brixton Neighborhood forum meeting there.

At that Squires junior gave talk of how community minded Squires are.

As you say guest memberships were at start fairly easy to come by. This was imo no accident. Squires did this at beginning to get good community PR.

I ve heard using the basement space is now pricey for community groups. Vida Walsh is cheaper. So that's gone.

Imo what Squires have done is clever. Making all right noises and then gradually bringing in extra costs. Which will make the space exclusive.

Squires are private business so its up to turn what they do with the property they own. That is how Capitalism works.

They aren't doing local community a favour by coming here. It was them bigging up arrival to Brixton.

I don't disagree with you about Squires possibly being clever in terms of PR when they moved here. It would have been pretty strange for them to have behaved any other way once they decided they were going to come here instead of King's Cross.

Where "elitist" means something along the lines of "the belief that certain persons deserve favoured treatment by virtue of their superiority, as in intelligence, social standing or wealth", then yeah, any members club is elitist. Any institution that charges entry and doesn't factor in the economic means of its locality is elitist. Is that the issue here? If so, I think there are a few places in Brixton that charge entry, Cafe Cairo being one example from the other night just as an example, but I don't see substantial posts decrying them as "greedy", "elitist" and "trying to keep the poor people away".

 

[whatwilldid]

I'm not sure why it's so difficult for some people to comprehend that something like the opening of a private members club might attract opposition not only because it's a prime example of gentrification, but also because it's happening in the context of a wider gentrification process. And that the wider gentrification process is happening in the wider context of austerity.

Rather than writing lengthy posts in support of Squires & Partners, who are quite literally the architects of the gentrification of that section of Brixton, why not spend that time researching some of the issues around gentrification, housing & poverty?

Got it, consider me out of here.

 

[editor]

I don't disagree with you about Squires possibly being clever in terms of PR when they moved here. It would have been pretty strange for them to have behaved any other way once they decided they were going to come here instead of King's Cross.

Where "elitist" means something along the lines of "the belief that certain persons deserve favoured treatment by virtue of their superiority, as in intelligence, social standing or wealth", then yeah, any members club is elitist. Any institution that charges entry and doesn't factor in the economic means of its locality is elitist. Is that the issue here? If so, I think there are a few places in Brixton that charge entry, Cafe Cairo being one example from the other night just as an example, but I don't see substantial posts decrying them as "greedy", "elitist" and "trying to keep the poor people away".

FFS. This is a really stupid and incoherent argument. Anyone can get into Cafe Cairo. It's free on their club nights if you get there early, and it's free throughout the week. It's a normal bar. Open to all.

If you have to pay £240 just for the right to set foot in a bar, then it is totally elitist, even more so if it's located in a poor area.

 

[editor]

Got it, consider me out of here.

So you really don't have an answer?

 

[discobastard]

So you really don't have an answer?

Hasn't got a chance really. Attacked, cornered, shut down. Nowhere to have a reasoned debate. Accusations of 'ad hominem' when you're one of the greatest practitioners of that yourself.

Business as usual.

 

[whatwilldid]

So you really don't have an answer?

To what? There's no way of making headway here, I'm perfectly happy leaving you to your domaine to reign and dish out justice to all who pass. I asked if we could meet up so you could educate me. I literally asked if that could happen, and you seem to have no interest in that, and so I'm fairly happy to call this my last post on this forum. I don't think it's for me. For the record, I help out at Brixton £ occasionally, I treat people with respect and I believe that gentrification can have an immensely negative effect on communities - I just don't believe that Upstairs at the Department Store merits this kind of vitriol, and I don't believe that you are capable of fostering a welcoming community on this forum. Perhaps if we bump into each other in town we'll have a nicer time than we have in the few hours that we've encountered one another on here. Let's leave it at that.

 

[editor]

Hasn't got a chance really. Attacked, cornered, shut down. Nowhere to have a reasoned debate. Accusations of 'ad hominem' when you're one of the greatest practitioners of that yourself.

Business as usual.

Try reading the fucking thread before trying to stir up shit as usual. He started up with the off-topic personal stuff as well you know.

 

[editor]

To what? There's no way of making headway here, I'm perfectly happy leaving you to your domaine to reign and dish out justice to all who pass. I asked if we could meet up so you could educate me. I literally asked if that could happen, and you seem to have no interest in that, and so I'm fairly happy to call this my last post on this forum. I don't think it's for me. For the record, I help out at Brixton £ occasionally, I treat people with respect and I believe that gentrification can have an immensely negative effect on communities - I just don't believe that Upstairs at the Department Store merits this kind of vitriol, and I don't believe that you are capable of fostering a welcoming community on this forum. Perhaps if we bump into each other in town we'll have a nicer time than we have in the few hours that we've encountered one another on here. Let's leave it at that.

I really haven't got the time to 'educate' people who I don't believe are being sincere.

But I'm sure Squire & Partners are glad you're here to defend them - they've certainly never taken the time or the interest to interact here (probably because they can't control it), although I'm not quite seeing the 'vitriol' you're claiming. I just see people at the end of their tether seeing their community being ripped apart and turned into a two tier state, with all the nice stuff for the well off and privileged and those struggling on limited finances being pushed out of the picture. And Squire & Partners are absolutely part of that process of dividing the community, even if you can't see it.

 

[discobastard]

Try reading the fucking thread before trying to stir up shit as usual. He started up with the off-topic personal stuff as well you know.

I *have* read the thread. I thought he or she put up some very well reasoned posts and stated their position very clearly. I don't see off-topic personal stuff at all. Do you want to clarify that?

Every time you tell me I'm stirring up shit, you must know really that I have an argument, mustn't you? I don't have the time or inclination to stir stuff up for the sake of it. You really should try and understand that. I have nothing personal, I just think it's fair to point out alternative points of view and the diversions and distractions that present themselves as rational arguments. See the recent Picturehouse thread as an example. No reasoned response, just insults, abuse and an unwillingness to engage.

 

[discobastard]

I really haven't got the time to 'educate' people who I don't believe are being sincere.

But I'm sure Squire & Partners are glad you're here to defend them - they've certainly never taken the time or the interest to interact here (probably because they can't control it), although I'm not quite seeing the 'vitriol' you're claiming. I just see people at the end of their tether seeing their community being ripped apart and turned into a two tier state, with all the nice stuff for the well off and privileged and those struggling on limited finances being pushed out of the picture. And Squire & Partners are absolutely part of that process of dividing the community, even if you can't see it.

Here we go:

'I haven't got the time to educate people who aren't being sincere' - a very blunt and unconsidered rebuttal of somebody who opened up and is willing to listen, with a very poor excuse - it actually sounds like whatwilldid is being *very* sincere, as they have stated their position very clearly indeed, and they are involved in community activities. That just makes it sound like you don't want to engage with something where you might need to concede in any way

'I'm sure Squire & Partners are glad you're here to defend them' - a massive oversimplification and *huge* fallacy, which is also a colossal ad hominem (you don't like them, right?) There's a big difference between putting forward an argument that S&P exists and does not mean the whole of the community is excluded from Brixton and 'defending' them. The poster quite clearly stated that they would prefer the space was given over to social housing (as would I), but that given they are here, they bring at least some jobs to Brixton.

As I said before, fighting excessive gentrification is a good thing, but there's such a thing as weather versus climate. You spend all your time fighting individuals or businesses, then you neglect the bigger picture which is how the council and the Government get away with allowing this stuff to happen. And spending all your time hating on those that are prepared to discuss the idea of balance. So even if you put forward a remotely reasoned argument and are community minded, you're still wrong. Things change, good or bad, but insisting that it shouldn't have changed is a hiding to nothing, because it has.

Somebody even offered to meet and discuss it with you, but you basically told them to fuck off.

That's why people don't post here anymore, *not* because the place is full of right wingers, as you like to point out. But it's a great excuse.

 

[editor]

I *have* read the thread. I thought he or she put up some very well reasoned posts and stated their position very clearly. I don't see off-topic personal stuff at all. Do you want to clarify that?

Every time you tell me I'm stirring up shit, you must know really that I have an argument, mustn't you? I don't have the time or inclination to stir stuff up for the sake of it. You really should try and understand that. I have nothing personal, I just think it's fair to point out alternative points of view and the diversions and distractions that present themselves as rational arguments. See the recent Picturehouse thread as an example. No reasoned response, just insults, abuse and an unwillingness to engage.

So you think the amount of time I've been posting on this site, and the amount of posts I've made over the years has any direct relevance to the topic under discussion?

And then there was the suggestion that I'm not interested in doing "something worthwhile". The poster has no fucking idea what I do around Brixton . But then I don't know why I'm even bothering talking to you. You always steam in when there's points to be made. Are you talking about Squire and gentrification? Nope, It's the same old personal shit.

 

[editor]

Somebody even offered to meet and discuss it with you, but you basically told them to fuck off. That's not a good look.

And here you go again, continuing your personal crusade to score points. It's way too predictable and disruptive, so unless you stop immediately I'm putting us both on mutual ignore. The topic here is gentrification and I really don't care what you think of me. I doubt many other posters do, either.

 

[discobastard]

So you think the amount of time I've been posting on this site, and the amount of posts I've made over the years has any direct relevance to the topic under discussion?

And then there was the suggestion that I'm not interested in doing "something worthwhile". The poster has no fucking idea what I do around Brixton . But then I don't know why I'm even bothering talking to you. You always steam in when there's points to be made. Are you talking about Squire and gentrification? Nope, It's the same old personal shit.

I have no opinion on how long you've been posting on this site. I know you started it, and you have my total respect for that. Really. The poster was clearly not attacking an individual, rather the power that individual has over the general tone, content and response they got on the board. So not an ad hominem, it was a reasoned response to the response they got to their post. You can;t just pull that out every time. You've 'ad hominem-ed' me enough times and apparently its perfectly acceptable as long as it goes the other way.

Meeting and talking is most certainly something worthwhile. And I know that you have done many worthwhile things around Brixton, every time I mention my respect for you, you ignore it. But that's your problem not mine.

And it's not personal shit, it's about the hijacking and shutting down of a discussion about S&P. But the poster that started that conversation that could have been interesting is a fucking dick, right?

 

[editor]

Meeting and talking is most certainly something worthwhile?

How many new posters have you met off this site for a political chat? Why on earth do you think I'd have the time or inclination to meet someone to talk about Squire and Partners? Of course, I may hear something wonderfully insightful, but given I've been studying, talking, lecturing and arguing about gentrification for bloody years - and his contributions to this thread thus far - I'm pretty sure I'm not going to hear anything new. But you can go meet him if you like and report back.

 

[discobastard]

And here you go again, continuing your personal crusade to score points. It's way too predictable and disruptive, so unless you stop immediately I'm putting us both on mutual ignore. The topic here is gentrification and I really don't care what you think of me. I doubt many other posters do, either.

I have no interest in scoring points, just reasoned debates which aren't pile on which ignore 80% of what a poster puts forward.

If you want to censor me or reject any kind of intelligent debate with those who might have a slightly different POV to yours, please feel free to put us on mutual ignore. You're in charge and I don't have that option.

But still, respect to you for the good stuff you've done.

 

[discobastard]

How many new posters have you met off this site for a political chat? Why on earth do you think I'd have the time or inclination to meet someone to talk about Squire and Partners? Of course, I may hear something wonderfully insightful, but given I've been studying, talking, lecturing and arguing about gentrification for bloody years - and his contributions to this thread thus far - I'm pretty sure I'm not going to hear anything new. But you can go meet him if you like and report back.

I've met some truly great people from this site. And you're perfectly entitled to that view.

And of course, I never suggested I would go and meet him or her, but your sarcasm is noted and dismissed.

 

[editor]

I have no interest in scoring points, just reasoned debates which aren't pile on which ignore 80% of what a poster puts forward.

If you want to censor me or reject any kind of intelligent debate with those who might have a slightly different POV to yours, please feel free to put us on mutual ignore. You're in charge and I don't have that option.

But still, respect to you for the good stuff you've done.

Why do you feel the need to constantly steam in whenever I'm involved? And if you are here simply in your role as the self-elected role as defender of free speech (or how ever you frame it), please explain why you have not uttered a single word to 3Zeros who is actually the poster who prompted whatwilldid 's flounce?

Strange that, isn't it. And just look what you've done to this fucking thread since you arrived. All debate has ended and it's all got personal, FFS.

 

[discobastard]

Why do you feel the need to constantly steam in whenever I'm involved? And if you are here simply in your role as the self-elected role as defender of free speech (or how ever you frame it), please explain why you have not uttered a single word to 3Zeros who is actually the poster who prompted whatwilldid 's flounce?

Strange that, isn't it. And just look what you've done to this fucking thread since you arrived. All debate has ended and it's all got personal, FFS.

There was never any debate in the first place, that's the problem. Well spotted.

 

[sealion]

Cafe Cairo being one example from the other night just as an example, but I don't see substantial posts decrying them as "greedy", "elitist" and "trying to keep the poor people away".

It's open five nights a week and free to enter for at least three of those nights. If there's live acts and cabaret as there was last weekend they usually charge between £3 -£5 depending on what the acts want paying and the amount of extra bar/security staff required. They don't always charge an entrance fee and do provide a free toast bar and welcome people from all backrounds. There's free art and craft classes, live model painting (free) and the use of rooms for events and community meetings, also free. I know the people there very well and they are far from elitest or greedy ( this is a laughable suggestion) hence the lack of posts decrying them, nor do they keep poor people out.

 

[Mr Retro]

Does anybody know is there a work space that you can access during the day as part of the membership or is it just entrance to the bar/ roof terrace/ restaurant?

They refer to a “social space” on their website. Not really sure what that means.

 

[existentialist]

1) They have table football, table tennis, live music and quite a few events in the space downstairs (although membership Upstairs isn't required for access to the events downstairs - that depends on the event organisers). Pool in the Marquis of Lorne is a £1 a go. Music in the Effra Tavern is free (and outstanding). I never said it was better than any free entertainment found all over Brixton. I said it was a matter of personal preference.
2) I think asking for £240 for membership will exlude people who don't want to or can't spend £240 - myself included. But that's their perogative, what with them managing a private members restaurant, and all. Most members bars charge significantly more than £240, so to some, depending on their frame of reference, it's actually fairly inclusive as far as a PRIVATE MEMBERS space is concerned. I said it was a matter of personal preference.
3) I think it depends on what the private members bar does in the predominantly poor area to try to improve community cohesion. If Squires and Upstairs do nothing (bear in mind they haven't charged a penny for membership yet), then I will feel very comfortable criticising them for that. Will you feel comfortable praising their actions if they do some good in the local area, I wonder? Or will it just be crumbs off the table, again?
4) You've inferred that me saying it was staffed by good people meant something other than precisely what I said. Why are you trying to coax me into telling you what bars I think are staffed by bad people in Brixton? What the actual fuck is that?

Finally, yeah, it kind of is about exclusivity. It's a PRIVATE MEMBERS restaurant/bar, which is available to the public at a fee. The public can determine in their own good ways, whether or not they think it represents value for money, or whether they want to be a part of it. I wish that the space had been turned into affordable housing and community projects for the people that need it the most in Brixton. But it wasn't. And it was lying empty for a very long time. There are now, as a result of Squires, a few more hundred people working in Brixton, spending their money. I don't believe in trickle down economics, and so I accept that the poor won't directly benefit from that, but I am 100% sure that a space occupied by a profitable business that attracts money is a better thing for a community than having a massive building with nothing in it but potential.

I love the smell of rat in the morning.

 

[editor]

It's open five nights a week and free to enter for at least three of those nights. If there's live acts and cabaret as there was last weekend they usually charge between £3 -£5 depending on what the acts want paying and the amount of extra bar/security staff required. They don't always charge an entrance fee and do provide a free toast bar and welcome people from all backrounds. There's free art and craft classes, live model painting (free) and the use of rooms for events and community meetings, also free. I know the people there very well and they are far from elitest or greedy ( this is a laughable suggestion) hence the lack of posts decrying them, nor do they keep poor people out.

It was quite the most ridiculous comparison.

 

[editor]

Does anybody know is there a work space that you can access during the day as part of the membership or is it just entrance to the bar/ roof terrace/ restaurant?

They refer to a “social space” on their website. Not really sure what that means.

It's a buzzword that suggests it's for everyone but it really means that's is just a space that people can hang out in. Well those people who've got a quarter of a grand to spare, that is. How do you feel about such an expensive and exclusive private bar opening up in Brixton?

 

[CH1]

I had an idea that POW did something similar to the Squires place. Can't outright confirm this, but from my perspective living on just over £5,000 pa of which 25% goes on Council Tax this little private offering seems extravagant: The Blue Room – POW / The Prince Of Wales

Maybe I'm moving in a parallel universe - but is it OK to charge £240 or even £480 to hire a room with cocktails and spirits in it - but not OK to charge an annual fee for membership of a venue - a measure clearly designed to keep out the hoi polloi?

 

[cuppa tee]

I used to frequent a well known private members club in soho at one time
The sole purpose being to drink after pub closing time
No membership fee was paid, the method of entry was to involve a club member in conversation At the pub early doors
And trick them into revealing the membership number
Then a quick phone call was made to the club to blag a guestie using their details
This was before soho had been homogenised so not too painful a night out.
It had to stop when my partner in crime "tattooed" some glamourous gals ( with their consent) using an indelible marker....tributes to Leeds Uniteds Billy bremner IIRC causing the cancellation of an expensive fashion week event.
The only direct benefit I can see to this venture is that whatwilldids hypothetical 400 will hopefully be indulging in loud chat and chasing networking opportunities Upstairs and not taking up space in less pretentious venues few as they are in the present time.....