Fatalities and critical injuries at Asake concert crush at the Brixton Academy

[editor]

See Brixton BId are going on about what a great decision this is:

Brixton Academy Licensing Committee Decision - Brixton Bid

Nine months ago, a tragic incident happened at the Brixton Academy where Rebecca Ikumelo and Gaby Hutchinson lost their lives.…

brixtonbid.co.uk

AMG have a person on the board of Brixton BID. So hardly a neutral organisation imo.

The way they have lobbied for this is in stark contrast to Brixton BID silence on Hondo Towers planning application.

The Brixton Bid is self interest personified.

 

[nick h.]

Im a bit concerned. Having dealt with Lambeth over licensing issues ( noise problems) when I was in central Brixton I do not have faith in Lambeth having the capacity or ability to closely monitor licensing conditions.

And now they have 77 new conditions to check. How on earth can they do this? It would need a person from the council and a person from AMG to spend a day or two on checks every time there's an event.

 

[edcraw]

And now they have 77 new conditions to check. How on earth can they do this? It would need a person from the council and a person from AMG to spend a day or two on checks every time there's an event.

Presumably there’s an element of trust once the measures have been introduced and then an audit or spot checks.

 

[Gramsci]

And now they have 77 new conditions to check. How on earth can they do this? It would need a person from the council and a person from AMG to spend a day or two on checks every time there's an event.

I agree.

And it is the long term checking of conditions Im concerned about. Their might be a push by Council to make sure conditions are implemented initially. Right paperwork some alterations etc etc. But will the Council make sure that these are kept to long term?

My experience of dealing with Licensing in central Brixton is that they are woefully under staffed. That it take a resident to look up all the info and try to keep officers on the case.

So imo the Council might have a flurry of officer time now but not later on. Also the way it works is that officers ask for all the right paperwork ( policies etc) from a holder of a license. But do not necessarily have the time to check if it is working

Are officers of the Council going to view a late evening event to check that all conditions are working in practise? Realistically no.

 

[DietCokeGirl]

Presumably there’s an element of trust once the measures have been introduced and then an audit or spot checks.

A proportion must be 1 time actions - like changes to the builders, contractor changes etc

 

[madolesance]

I agree.

And it is the long term checking of conditions Im concerned about. Their might be a push by Council to make sure conditions are implemented initially. Right paperwork some alterations etc etc. But will the Council make sure that these are kept to long term?

My experience of dealing with Licensing in central Brixton is that they are woefully under staffed. That it take a resident to look up all the info and try to keep officers on the case.

So imo the Council might have a flurry of officer time now but not later on. Also the way it works is that officers ask for all the right paperwork ( policies etc) from a holder of a license. But do not necessarily have the time to check if it is working

Are officers of the Council going to view a late evening event to check that all conditions are working in practise? Realistically no.

So what's the solution? Ignore all the conditions and let it all happen again or follow them and try and make the venue a safe space for everyone to visit and work at? Surely those 77 reasons need to be adhered to?

 

[Gramsci]

So what's the solution? Ignore all the conditions and let it all happen again or follow them and try and make the venue a safe space for everyone to visit and work at? Surely those 77 reasons need to be adhered to?

Sorry you seem to be under the misapprehension I'm opposing the conditions.

I'm just pointing out my experience of Lambeth licensing.

Of course the conditions need to be adhered to now and long term.. But in the real world of how Lambeth council work will this happen?

I'm raising doubts based on experience of dealing with Lambeth.

 

[nick h.]

The sheer number of conditions seems so impractical that it makes we wonder what the council's aims are.

For one thing they probably want to cover themselves so that if or when the cause(s) of the deaths are decided, they can say that they have already addressed these causes with some of the new conditions, so by allowing the venue to reopen before the enquiry is ccomplete they can say they have done everything possible to avoid exposing audiences to risk.

Perhaps also there are those in the council who share the police opinion that AMG are unfit. The plight of local traders has made it essential to reopen the venue, but in the long term the council can make it so awkward and time consuming for AMG management that they are forced to sell to another operator. This would also improve relations with the police. It must be problematic for the council to go against the police by allowing AMG to continue.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

One of the main measures being mentioned is stronger doors, and you would hope this would prevent a repeat of people smashing them in and storming into the venue. Things like that wouldn't need to be checked by the council daily, it would be a waste of time. Scheduled maintenance a few times a year would suffice.

 

[teuchter]

Let's also "hope" that stronger doors don't actually increase the danger, given the massive amount of evidence that those at the front of a crowd crush have no control over what's happening. In that situation they'd just have to hope that the doors were opened for them, rather than have the doors fail once there's a dangerous amount of pressure on them. Stronger doors seems very much a "blame the crowd" measure.

 

[felonius monk]

I haven't seen the 77 conditions but I would hope that better use of emergency exits would be one of them.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

Let's also "hope" that stronger doors don't actually increase the danger, given the massive amount of evidence that those at the front of a crowd crush have no control over what's happening. In that situation they'd just have to hope that the doors were opened for them, rather than have the doors fail once there's a dangerous amount of pressure on them. Stronger doors seems very much a "blame the crowd" measure.

There is certainly evidence of the night in question, by way of mobile phone video footage i have watched, showing once the doors are breached by the people who did so, they jubilantly sprint into the venue, a few only stopping to fight with security guards still trying in vain to keep them out within the foyer (which i believe was where one of their colleagues died). It doesn't look much like to me that once passed the doors, the people involved need to take a minute to appreciate the pressure being relieved from being pushed up against a solid object. But we'll have to wait for the inquiry or investigation to be published before we can decide just how 'blameless the crowd' were on that night.

 

[edcraw]

I haven't seen the 77 conditions but I would hope that better use of emergency exits would be one of them.

The conditions are at the end of this:

https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/b34421/O2%20Academy%20Brixton%20Decision%20Monday%2011-Sep-2023%2010.00%20Licensing%20Sub-Committee.pdf?T=9

The measures for the doors don’t seem to be one of the conditions but something AMG are doing independently. The council measures, quite rightly, are about stopping crowds in front of the doors.

 

[Rushy]

Are 77 conditions unusual? Ton of Brix appears to have 74.

 

[editor]

The measures for the doors don’t seem to be one of the conditions but something AMG are doing independently. The council measures, quite rightly, are about stopping crowds in front of the doors.

Yes, they are:

71. No licensable activities shall take place at the premises until the works to strengthen the front doors of the venue as identified in the Report from William J Marshall dated 9th August 2023 have been satisfactorily completed and a certificate of completion following an inspection by William J Marshall or other suitably qualified structural engineers has been provided to the licensing authority.

I've just gone though that document and reformatted it to make it more readable.

Brixton O2 Academy: the full list of the 77 conditions that must be implemented before the venue can reopen

Last week we reported that Lambeth’s Cabinet Member for Safer Communities had made the decision that Brixton O2 Academy can reopen subject to the venue fulfilling 77 conditions to ensure the safet…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

 

[edcraw]

Yes, they are:

I've just gone though that document and reformatted it to make it more readable.

Brixton O2 Academy: the full list of the 77 conditions that must be implemented before the venue can reopen

Last week we reported that Lambeth’s Cabinet Member for Safer Communities had made the decision that Brixton O2 Academy can reopen subject to the venue fulfilling 77 conditions to ensure the safet…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Thanks - I missed that.

 

[editor]

Thanks - I missed that.

It's a loooong document. Took me ages to reformat the thing!

 

[teuchter]

One of the conditions is all about avoiding crowding around the doors.



Seems to me that the strength of the doors only becomes relevant if these crowd safety measures have failed. If the crowd safety measures have failed, it means that the front of the crowd has overwhelmed any barriers keeping it away from the doors, and the staff have lost control of the situation. And then it would seem that you would very likely have a situation where the crush at the front is becoming dangerous. Are strengthened doors what you want in that scenario? I Am Not An Expert but wonder what the logic is.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

In my experience, ticket and if necessary I.D, checks already took place away from the door in the alley leading upto the front doors. The front door area and that immediately inside the front doors were for the search process, sometimes with sniffer dogs.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes, they are:

I've just gone though that document and reformatted it to make it more readable.

Brixton O2 Academy: the full list of the 77 conditions that must be implemented before the venue can reopen

Last week we reported that Lambeth’s Cabinet Member for Safer Communities had made the decision that Brixton O2 Academy can reopen subject to the venue fulfilling 77 conditions to ensure the safet…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

This is very helpful.

One condition is that council/ police are invited for monthly meetings to go over upcoming events etc.

Doesn't oblige council or police to attend.

Looks like a lot of the conditions will be checked by using what the conditions says are independent auditors. With the police/ council having access to them. I'm assuming that AMG pay and appoint independent auditors.

So a lot of conditions will be checked by council having access to the paperwork.

What I don't quite understand is the bit about risk assessment for each event. Seems that different events are assumed to have different risks. I don't follow this. It's a live music venue. So would have thought risk would be same whatever is on?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

What I don't quite understand is the bit about risk assessment for each event. Seems that different events are assumed to have different risks. I don't follow this. It's a live music venue. So would have thought risk would be same whatever is on?

Of course different events have different risks. Expected audience age, volume, standing vs seated, finish time, number of acts etc

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

Of course different events have different risks. Expected audience age, volume, standing vs seated, finish time, number of acts etc

Wait so, a pop act doing an early evening show where 14 year olds are allowed in would be a different risk category to an all night Drum & Bass rave? Mind blown

 

[edcraw]

Yes - let’s pretend racist policing of music events isn’t a thing!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yes - let’s pretend racist policing of music events isn’t a thing!

Saying D&B/Grime/“urban” type events typically see more trouble than certain others isn’t racist, it’s just a fact.

Sure, there’s an entire sociology thesis as to why this may be, but it doesn’t change how you have to run these types of events.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

Saying D&B/Grime/“urban” type events typically see more trouble than certain others isn’t racist, it’s just a fact.

If the attendees are treated any differently to those of an underage Justin Bieber concert then AMG, security, the council and the Police are basically racist

 

[edcraw]

Saying D&B/Grime/“urban” type events typically see more trouble than certain others isn’t racist, it’s just a fact.

Sure, there’s an entire sociology thesis as to why this may be, but it doesn’t change how you have to run these types of events.

Not what I said.

 

[edcraw]

If the attendees are treated any differently to those of an underage Justin Bieber concert then AMG, security, the council and the Police are basically racist

Again, not what I said.

People on here often seem to have a lot of misplaced trust in the Met despite mountains of evidence.

Form 696 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Again, not what I said.

People on here often seem to have a lot of misplaced trust in the Met despite mountains of evidence.

Form 696 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’d trust them about as far as I could throw a mattress up a spiral staircase. Wouldn’t change how I’d risk asses an event.

 

[edcraw]

Thing is Brixton Academy doesn’t have Justin Beiber etc gigs - the crowds are all much the same but the one thing that changes most is race.

 

[klang]

what?