Unite against Fascism (UAF) has failed (?)

[revlon]

guest anti-fascist speakers jeremy corbyn off of the govenment.

Sponsored by calsberg.

 

[butchersapron]

We leave a space below for Comrade BA's proposals on the way forward.

Work with communities? absolutely. How would such an event not be working with communties?

But it's not like you to sit there blithley slagging everyone off Butchers, get back to your positive hippy self and spin us a few of your own ideas.

It's an idea, not a solution. There will be many solutions. Don't tease. What has your brain conjured?

I've given you my ideas - they don't include a great big 'funky and edgy' barn dance, they're more aimed at dealing with the issues that are driving both the BNP and the EDL and dealing with the forms of responses those issues are putting on the table in many communities right now:

1 Community unions
We could form ‘community unions’, unconnected to Labour, possibly funded by trade unions but with organisational independence assured, that would work directly on helping to meet the needs of those politically abandoned working-class communities where conditions are deteriorating by the day. These would be based around the self-identified needs and plans of those communities – which can only pit them head-to-head against the BNP and the political mainstream.

The types of small victories that can be won on this terrain should be viewed not only as being worthwhile in themselves, but also as contributing to the re-emergence of community confidence in political self-assertion, the necessary first steps towards achieving further-reaching change. There are already existing groups engaged in this sort of practical activity, such as the London Coalition Against Poverty, Haringey Solidarity and the Oxford and Islington Working Class Associations (see Red Pepper Oct/Nov 2007).

The need for these to be open membership union-type organisations rather than party membership-type groups is a simple practical one. People will join unions at work as they recognise collective needs that exist over and above the heads of political disagreements, and the same is true of community needs. And once there is widespread identification (even passive) of the needs of an area/workplace with the existence of a union it becomes very hard to shift; that identification becomes a power in itself. Parties are too narrow to play this role under today’s conditions – they exist on a different level – but there is no reason why they cannot play a role within these broader open groups.

2 Focus on policy
We should develop the ‘expose them’ model into one that, instead of revealing ineffective details about individuals, concentrates on why their polices will not deal with the social problems driving people into their arms. If we cannot make this clear to those already intensely concerned with these issues then our propaganda is failing and is at best talking to those who would never vote BNP anyway.

This will require a direct challenge to Searchlight/UAF and other mainstream anti-fascists as they continue to empty their publications of all but the most inane type of content criticised above. This, of course, needs to be linked to the activity of the ‘community union’ type groups mentioned above.

3 Abandon Labour
Anti-fascist need to abandon their default pro-Labour position and use their existing networks and resources to get behind local campaigns, actively challenging the conditions that are breeding support for the far right. (This seems unlikely to happen.)

4 End the marches
Stop the marches, labeling, shouting, and so on. Decamping into an area that you do not know and have no continuing interest in and shouting what’s right for that area is alienating and counter-productive. People do not like being told what’s best for them and will kick back against or simply ignore this sort of activity.

 

[audiotech]

What anti-tory bias in the poll? Are you suggesting UAF is a trot front?

You had a stab at guessing away the yes they should wrap it up votes, now have a go at why there's so few no votes.

FWIW, i have heard increasingly loud whispers that it's going to be parked and the ANL will be dusted down post-elections once more.

The very same point made some time ago.

I can see that the "anti-tory bias" was posted in error.

Most people here believe it to be a trot front.

Few no votes because most here revel in swappie bashing and think it best if people ignore the EDL.

 

[butchersapron]

Oops, i meant anti-trot of course, not anti-tory

 

[rioted]

Pass the dutchie.

"multicultural" annoys you? How would you describe groups of kids from assorted racial, religious and ethnic origins?

 

[Fedayn]

"multicultural" annoys you? How would you describe groups of kids from assorted racial, religious and ethnic origins?

Multi-racial, pretty simple really.

 

[treelover]

FWIW, i have heard increasingly loud whispers that it's going to be parked and the ANL will be dusted down post-elections once more.

The SWP remind me of nothing more than an aggressive multinational:, renaming brands, positioning its products, and trying to undermine its competitors...

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

So far we have things that are comical, a re-mash of the UAF and things that are being tried/have been tried but not getting anywhere.

Not very inspriring.

 

[likesfish]

from a non left forum lot of noise not all from nazis as the UAF come across as no better than the edl.
ther police can't stand by and let you batter the edl or anyone else no matter how much rightous fury you display.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its what still happens today. Mostly local multicultural youth. But I don't think they define themselves as socialists let alone trainspotters.

Well, to be fair, most of the people I knew back in the 70s weren't card-carrying or self-defining "socialists" of any stripe either, just people who didn't like the NF coming round trying to stir up shit. Although lack of political unity shouldn't be taken to imply a lack of tactics and strategy.

 

[The Black Hand]

"multicultural" annoys you? How would you describe groups of kids from assorted racial, religious and ethnic origins?

I like multi cultural tbh

 

[The Black Hand]

I've given you my ideas - they don't include a great big 'funky and edgy' barn dance, they're more aimed at dealing with the issues that are driving both the BNP and the EDL and dealing with the forms of responses those issues are putting on the table in many communities right now...
3 Abandon Labour
Anti-fascist need to abandon their default pro-Labour position and use their existing networks and resources to get behind local campaigns, actively challenging the conditions that are breeding support for the far right. (This seems unlikely to happen.)

4 End the marches
Stop the marches, labeling, shouting, and so on. Decamping into an area that you do not know and have no continuing interest in and shouting what’s right for that area is alienating and counter-productive. People do not like being told what’s best for them and will kick back against or simply ignore this sort of activity.

3. the problem is here that there is NO alternative in a lot of places. You cannot seriously be saying leave it free for the BNP.

4. Amazing. Thousands of years of protest have all been wrong! FFS The culture of protest is and has been dying for a long time and now you want to kill it? There are no outsiders in the working class.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So far we have things that are comical, a re-mash of the UAF and things that are being tried/have been tried but not getting anywhere.

Not very inspriring.

Of course not, and part of the problem is the tension between needing to maintain a community/local grip on issues and the seeming need of a section of those who oppose the BNP and neo-fascism to be part of a national group with a national agenda.
Localism gives the ability to act and react more quickly, and with tactics "tailored" to the local situation, but also strongly implies freedom from central control, and the raison d'etre of most national groups happens to be...central control.

 

[ViolentPanda]

4. Amazing. Thousands of years of protest have all been wrong! FFS The culture of protest is and has been dying for a long time and now you want to kill it? There are no outsiders in the working class.

You're either stupid or disingenuous. I'll go with the latter.

He's not saying "end marching", and you know it, yet you can't resist trying to score a cheap point.

 

[The39thStep]

3. the problem is here that there is NO alternative in a lot of places. You cannot seriously be saying leave it free for the BNP.

4. Amazing. Thousands of years of protest have all been wrong! FFS The culture of protest is and has been dying for a long time and now you want to kill it? There are no outsiders in the working class.

Since when have anarchists called for a labour vote?

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Of course not, and part of the problem is the tension between needing to maintain a community/local grip on issues and the seeming need of a section of those who oppose the BNP and neo-fascism to be part of a national group with a national agenda.
Localism gives the ability to act and react more quickly, and with tactics "tailored" to the local situation, but also strongly implies freedom from central control, and the raison d'etre of most national groups happens to be...central control.

I don't disagree but that still brings us back to the fact that in most places the BNP has an almost free run in local areas and there is no serious pro-working class alternative being built outside a handful of areas. The UAF is a waste of time, but at the moment so are the alternatives.

 

[stethoscope]

I don't disagree but that still brings us back to the fact that in most places the BNP has an almost free run in local areas and there is no serious pro-working class alternative being built outside a handful of areas. The UAF is a waste of time, but at the moment so are the alternatives.

But isn't that what Butcher's outline of an alternative achieves? Work on the ground in communities offering practical solutions, whilst remaining non-party political aligned, and also working in a less overt political manner towards diffusing the message/actions of groups like the BNP hoping to try and make capital of issues such as race/immigration in those areas?

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

But isn't that what Butcher's outline of an alternative achieves? Work on the ground in communities offering practical solutions, whilst remaining non-party political aligned, and also working in a less overt political manner towards diffusing the message/actions of groups like the BNP hoping to try and make capital of issues such as race/immigration?

But that's nothing new, it's been suggested for decades and doesn't seem to be achieving much and certainly not stopping the BNP.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Butchers

Thanks for repeating those proposals. They are excellent and if I had read them it wasnt for a while.

my idea was more associated with what to do on or near the day of an EDL demo, which is a question that I think still has a place.

What do you reckon the chances are of some of your ideas getting off the ground on a large scale?

I'll bring them to any discussions that are held in comming months.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't disagree but that still brings us back to the fact that in most places the BNP has an almost free run in local areas and there is no serious pro-working class alternative being built outside a handful of areas. The UAF is a waste of time, but at the moment so are the alternatives.

I don't agree that the BNP has a "free run". Even in places like Stoke where they actually have their paws on the reins of power they're still being resisted. Lack of coordination doesn't imply lack of resistance, and IMHO any attempt at coordination needs to be built from the ground up. Any attempt at top-down coordination will suffer the same problems as every preceding attempt because it'll try to impose a "party line" rather than accepting that different folks contribute to the struggle in different ways, may only be immediately interested in defending their home territory, and may not be particularly arsed about the ideological niceties.
"Spontaneous" resistance has worked before, and I suspect it'll work again, with or without a wider organisation being built. I do worry that the spontaneity may get damped by outsiders coming in and preaching the Gospel according to St Lev, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But that's nothing new, it's been suggested for decades and doesn't seem to be achieving much and certainly not stopping the BNP.

People get hung up on slogans.
What do you take "stop the BNP" to mean?

I've asked this question of dozens of people who've said that, and I've had several different answers, such as "stop them winning council wards"; "get them out of my area"; "make sure people know exactly what they stand for"; "ban them from being a political party" and even "liquidate the fascist scum".
Now, to me the first three are realistic and doable at a local level and perhaps, someday, at a national level, and the last two aren't, but that's kind of the spectrum of people who want to "stop the BNP".
While I might (and do, fondly) hope to see fascism disappear as an ideology, the only way that can realistically happen is through economic and social change, and a move away from the sort of discourse that blames groups of people rather than capital for social problems.

 

[ernestolynch]

Propose (in brief): The demos are always on Saturday, the EDL hierarchy need to announce them many weeks in advance.

Sunday after a demo activists within whatever radius of town X plan a divesity festival, PC and fluffy but funky and edgy too in parts. Might sound a bit Hope Not Hate, but crucially not actually HNH (more proper artists and anarchists)

Maybe with permission and backing from the council, maybe not. Bands, faith groups invited, workshops, kids stuff, food etc. etc. Key would also be engaging with the local islamic community to get them involved in all aspects.

Evening could have a Peace Debate or something.

The nazi front would get their nasty demo on the Saturday, I suppose People can feel to go to a "UAF" thing and shout, not go or slag it off completely.

But people could also help with a Sunday event to help bring a positive buzz.

The way the EDL work they probably won't hit that town again for a year.

A lot of the propaganda war is in the eyes of the onlookers on a busy saturday in town. They do not like what they see. If the EDL did as much as they wanted, most of the public would almost certainly like it less. If we did a big exorcism the next day it would dissolve a lot of the propagnda.

Genius.

 

[ernestolynch]

.
a divesity festival, PC and fluffy but funky and edgy too in parts. proper artists and anarchists...

... Bands, faith groups invited, workshops, kids stuff, food etc. etc... local islamic community ... a Peace Debate

I've just come in my pants.

 

[emanymton]

Sell them on ebay.

 

[tbaldwin]

The types of small victories that can be won on this terrain should be viewed not only as being worthwhile in themselves, but also as contributing to the re-emergence of community confidence in political self-assertion, the necessary first steps towards achieving further-reaching change. There are already existing groups engaged in this sort of practical activity, such as the London Coalition Against Poverty, Haringey Solidarity and the Oxford and Islington Working Class Associations (see Red Pepper Oct/Nov 2007).

More pissing in the wind from butchers this time. I doubt if any kind of credible political alternative is going to come out of the LCAP and the 30-40 people involved in HSG and the IWCA......I may prove to be wrong about this......but not for a while eh butchers!

 

[tbaldwin]

I've just come in my pants.

And i pissed myself when i saw Butchers political alternative...

 

[past caring]

And i pissed myself when i saw Butchers political alternative...

Yeah - but how did you know?

 

[ernestolynch]

(see Red Pepper Oct/Nov 2007)

world has moved on since then, and who reads that shit anyway?

 

[cogg]

Yeah - but how did you know?

???

 

[past caring]

Alright Colin - how you doing? Pint soon? Mekons 25th July, but that's leaving it a bit long...