Unite against Fascism (UAF) has failed (?)

[ViolentPanda]

Sounds like they're trying to emulate that group that have been protesting Scientology for 2 years.

This is what anti-fascists did back in the days of the NF, and earlier, the BUF, especially given that it had to be taken for granted that the old bill would weigh in on the side of the fascists, if they came across a ruck.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is just words. Who are they going confront? Where? With who? How will they identify their targets? What info gathering ops have they got? What backup when it goes very wrong very quickly? This bollocks works on muppets like the BPP, not stuff like this with more than a handful of goons. Childish and dangerous apolitical posturing. What do they think would be the wider result of some muppets attacking a few isolated edl at a station miles away?

IME the best place to take physical action was "on the doorstep", rather than staging ambushes that might harm "non-combatants".
Mind you, perhaps these lads have access to the much-vaunted Searchlight database of fascists, and so can identify their targets with precision!

 

[The39thStep]

Probably too busy organising an international brigade to somewhere. Hope he remembers the jam buttys this time.....

I don't think either Cockers or Workers Power/Permanent revolution ever really recovered from their time in cheadle high street

 

[Spion]

I don't think either Cockers or Workers Power/Permanent revolution ever really recovered from their time in cheadle high street

What happened there?

 

[treelover]

in joke innit...

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Everyone knows the UAF are a bunch of mugs, even most of the people who turn out on their demos probably think that, but that's been known for ages. Why make the same totally obvious point over and over? But what alternative is having any success?

You've got various groups running round trying to wish up a new workers party, getting hard on every time a general secretary throws them a few crumbs.

You've got the Galloway show that has gone from farce to farce.

The Labour left that is more of a joke than all the rest together.

The IWCA, who while they have a good emphasis on local working class communities (but ignoring the trade unions way too much in my view), show no signs of getting anywhere and since they've set up in a few local places have ground to a halt.

So people can sit back and talk the same old stuff about the UAF all day long, but it doesn't really mean much considering they are a total irrelevance on the wider scheme of things.

 

[sihhi]

Everyone knows the UAF are a bunch of mugs, even most of the people who turn out on their demos probably think that, but that's been known for ages. Why make the same totally obvious point over and over? But what alternative is having any success?

But the poll is about not naming an alternative, no full alternative is present, sure, so should UAF be wound up or not?

 

[sihhi]

Workers Power have their answer

An open letter not to replace the UAF, to let it carry on but form yet another antifascist coalition.

To draw larger numbers into these protests, to defend our protests against fascists and police and defend our communities against the EDL, Bolton shows again how urgently we need to move an Anti-fascist Defence League that can defend and organise our demonstrations and learn the lessons of Bolton.

We will be publishing an open letter to all anti-fascists asking for collaboration in forming such an organisation, not to replace existing anti-fascist groups, but to enable us to carry out our collective aim of stopping the EDL, preventing them from organising and ridding them from our cities for good.

http://www.workerspower.com/index.php?id=47,2325,0,0,1,0

 

[past caring]

From the same "article".

In past demonstrations in Luton, Leeds and Stoke, the EDL have been able to terrorise black and Asian communities and gay districts.

Gay districts?

 

[sihhi]

From the same "article".


Gay districts?

It sounds odd because it's an odd phrase.
Some EDL shouted abuse to people in central Leeds gay scene club/pub area in 2009.

http://www.worldrevolution.org.uk/index.php?id=24,1107,0,0,1,0

As a footnote, that instance in Leeds in November 2009, the Lib Dem council was in the middle of trying to break a strike by binworkers' whose pay had been threatened by a third. They were doing an agency strikebreaking operation using a significant amount of East European labour.
The UAF invited Lib Dem head honcho councillor Richard Brett to the rally and address the crowd etc.

Thread about the strike

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=304591&highlight=Richard+Brett

 

[rioted]

This is what anti-fascists did back in the days of the NF, and earlier, the BUF, especially given that it had to be taken for granted that the old bill would weigh in on the side of the fascists, if they came across a ruck.

Its what still happens today. Mostly local multicultural youth. But I don't think they define themselves as socialists let alone trainspotters.

Small autonomous and mobile groups that have no names, no banners, no PA and no way of being kettled. That's the way forward.

 

[past caring]

multicultural youth.

Pass the dutchie.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Right. People from organisations across the board, and none, have slagged and disected UAF strategy hither, thither and yon.

Let's accept that it is, broadly, a crock.

What next?

Presumably towns, cities or regions would need non UAF organisations foccussed on trying to deal with racism, fascism, scapegoating and the underlying issues. Many of these solutions are community based and longterm, I think quite a lot of people here (and UAF supporters) may be involved in those already.

But what of the more direct instant question of how to deal with an EDL march or BNP activism? We can hardly say "some hard community slog can sort this out in 5 years" - and where fascists gain a foothold it could well be them doing that slog.

Should we not bother with counter demos on the day but hold a party style event a week later (suggested to me by someone today)?

What other ideas are out there?

I think the appetite is there now to have this discussion. Slagging off X, Y and Z is a piece of piss. Can we move beyond it?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

So far 30 have voted

25 to 5 against the UAF (85% give or take)

How statistically reliable is that, and how might it reflect the vibe among anti-fascists broadly?

 

[audiotech]

The anti-trot bias alone makes the poll worthless. Chuck in the 4, or 5 tories, assorted liberals, independents, social democrats, a couple of nationalists, derf and detective-boy and it has no scientific value at all.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Actually I think that in someways the UAF has worked in that it has played a part in making sure the BNP are not allowed to just shed their 'fascist/Nazi' roots by constantly hammering home the point. I know of a couple of people who have expressed sympathy for the BNP but have shied clear of actually supporting them because of the fact that Griffin has shared platforms with all sorts in the past and so on. It has had an impact and I think that they could be seen as keeping a lid on the increase in support.

For me the wider problem is one that is not being addressed by the entire political spectrum although its the left with the biggest issue to address and thats the increasing alienation felt by a segment of the white working class. And this is where the UAF have fallen flat on their face in how they have reacted to the EDL. To call the BNP fascists/Nazis has a legitmacy because thats where its roots lay. But the EDL, which arose due to a percieved threat from extremist Islamic fundamentalist and in particular the incident in Luton with the returning Troops comes from a very specific and modern British problem. The causes for it all lay in post WW2 British domestic politics which have seen massive social change that has left a section of British society feeling left behind and isolated.

All I see the UAF doing in its protests againt the EDL is re-inforcing a perception that the left will always take the side of non-whites against whites. Yes, I would accept that the supposed fears of the EDL are wrong and so on but has anybody actually tried to sit down with them and just explain ? Maybe a UAF silent protests with banners saying 'dont be so silly' next time they march might have more affect than just labeling them Nazis and so on but, and lets really be honest here, it aint going to be so much fun is it ?

 

[ernestolynch]

The noisy 'left', the trots, should have vocally opposed muslim fundamentalism, but they were part of that anticommunist scum who cheered them on against the USSR in the 80s. Now they have turned on their creators, the USA. The trots love them even more now. Sad thing is as they are so noisy, people think the trots are left wingers when in fact they are extremist liberals.

 

[Spion]

Oh, let it go, Hoxhasaurus

 

[ernestolynch]

Oh, let it go, Hoxhasaurus

Never!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The anti-trot bias alone makes the poll worthless. Chuck in the 4, or 5 tories, assorted liberals, independents, social democrats, a couple of nationalists, derf and detective-boy and it has no scientific value at all.

good analysis. ta

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The noisy 'left', the trots, should have vocally opposed muslim fundamentalism, but they were part of that anticommunist scum who cheered them on against the USSR in the 80s. Now they have turned on their creators, the USA. The trots love them even more now. Sad thing is as they are so noisy, people think the trots are left wingers when in fact they are extremist liberals.

There's alot in that which is sadly true, but I would say that the character of EDL is distinctly anti-muslim per se rather than specifically really as just anti "fundementalist" as they pupport to be. In function it is pretty racist too.

People like the EDL don't really do theological nuance.

 

[butchersapron]

The anti-trot bias alone makes the poll worthless. Chuck in the 4, or 5 tories, assorted liberals, independents, social democrats, a couple of nationalists, derf and detective-boy and it has no scientific value at all.

What anti-tory bias in the poll? Are you suggesting UAF is a trot front?

You had a stab at guessing away the yes they should wrap it up votes, now have a go at why there's so few no votes.

FWIW, i have heard increasingly loud whispers that it's going to be parked and the ANL will be dusted down post-elections once more.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

FWIW, i have heard increasingly loud whispers that it's going to be parked and the ANL will be dusted down post-elections once more.

Interesting. Are those whispers specific to one locale, or is this a national thing? There's talk from all sorts of different places where I live too about doing something different post-election. I'm convinced this can only be done by grass roots, UAF and HNH are both top-down. That is a big reason for their failure (along with them being front organisations). EDL are a top down front organisation too and that could be a weakness to exploit via a contrasting strategy.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

But the poll is about not naming an alternative, no full alternative is present, sure, so should UAF be wound up or not?

Who cares, they are an irrelevance. So lets say wind it up, now what?

I've listed a few of the attempted alternatives, all of which are either a joke or are going nowhere. So everyone saying that the UAF have failed, and I agree, what alternative is realistically on the cards? Because if there isn't one all the people on here spouting off might make themselves feel a bit better on a keyboard, but it doesn't do anything more than that.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Who cares, they are an irrelevance. So lets say wind it up, now what?

I've listed a few of the attempted alternatives, all of which are either a joke or are going nowhere. So everyone saying that the UAF have failed, and I agree, what alternative is realistically on the cards? Because if there isn't one all the people on here spouting off might make themselves feel a bit better on a keyboard, but it doesn't do anything more than that.

Propose (in brief): The demos are always on Saturday, the EDL hierarchy need to announce them many weeks in advance.

Sunday after a demo activists within whatever radius of town X plan a divesity festival, PC and fluffy but funky and edgy too in parts. Might sound a bit Hope Not Hate, but crucially not actually HNH (more proper artists and anarchists)

Maybe with permission and backing from the council, maybe not. Bands, faith groups invited, workshops, kids stuff, food etc. etc. Key would also be engaging with the local islamic community to get them involved in all aspects.

Evening could have a Peace Debate or something.

The nazi front would get their nasty demo on the Saturday, I suppose People can feel to go to a "UAF" thing and shout, not go or slag it off completely.

But people could also help with a Sunday event to help bring a positive buzz.

The way the EDL work they probably won't hit that town again for a year.

A lot of the propaganda war is in the eyes of the onlookers on a busy saturday in town. They do not like what they see. If the EDL did as much as they wanted, most of the public would almost certainly like it less. If we did a big exorcism the next day it would dissolve a lot of the propagnda.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

.

 

[revlon]

Propose (in brief): The demos are always on Saturday, the EDL hierarchy need to announce them many weeks in advance.

Sunday after a demo activists within whatever radius of town X plan a divesity festival, PC and fluffy but funky and edgy too in parts. Might sound a bit Hope Not Hate, but crucially not actually HNH (more proper artists and anarchists)

Maybe with permission and backing from the council, maybe not. Bands, faith groups invited, workshops, kids stuff, food etc. etc. Key would also be engaging with the local islamic community to get them involved in all aspects.

Evening could have a Peace Debate or something.

The nazi front would get their nasty demo on the Saturday, I suppose People can feel to go to a "UAF" thing and shout, not go or slag it off completely.

But people could also help with a Sunday event to help bring a positive buzz.

The way the EDL work they probably won't hit that town again for a year.

A lot of the propaganda war is in the eyes of the onlookers on a busy saturday in town. They do not like what they see. If the EDL did as much as they wanted, most of the public would almost certainly like it less. If we did a big exorcism the next day it would dissolve a lot of the propagnda.

uaf pisstake right

 

[butchersapron]

Propose (in brief): The demos are always on Saturday, the EDL hierarchy need to announce them many weeks in advance.

Sunday after a demo activists within whatever radius of town X plan a divesity festival, PC and fluffy but funky and edgy too in parts. Might sound a bit Hope Not Hate, but crucially not actually HNH (more proper artists and anarchists)

Maybe with permission and backing from the council, maybe not. Bands, faith groups invited, workshops, kids stuff, food etc. etc. Key would also be engaging with the local islamic community to get them involved in all aspects.

Evening could have a Peace Debate or something.

The nazi front would get their nasty demo on the Saturday, I suppose People can feel to go to a "UAF" thing and shout, not go or slag it off completely.

But people could also help with a Sunday event to help bring a positive buzz.

The way the EDL work they probably won't hit that town again for a year.

A lot of the propaganda war is in the eyes of the onlookers on a busy saturday in town. They do not like what they see. If the EDL did as much as they wanted, most of the public would almost certainly like it less. If we did a big exorcism the next day it would dissolve a lot of the propagnda.

You're not serious are you? Tell me you're not.

 

[The Black Hand]

The anti-trot bias alone makes the poll worthless. Chuck in the 4, or 5 tories, assorted liberals, independents, social democrats, a couple of nationalists, derf and detective-boy and it has no scientific value at all.

Don't forget the ultra left, too many around here IMHO

So people can sit back and talk the same old stuff about the UAF all day long, but it doesn't really mean much considering they are a total irrelevance on the wider scheme of things.

Its what still happens today. Mostly local multicultural youth. But I don't think they define themselves as socialists let alone trainspotters.

"Small autonomous and mobile groups that have no names, no banners, no PA and no way of being kettled. That's the way forward. "

Well its one way forward, and could make things more effective. It would be the end of demos as we know it where people accept being treated by sheep by the police AND the left. Of course it is outside of the control of the Ultra Left too, all this talk of people acting anarchistically

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You're not serious are you? Tell me you're not.

We leave a space below for Comrade BA's proposals on the way forward.

Work with communities? absolutely. How would such an event not be working with communties?

But it's not like you to sit there blithley slagging everyone off Butchers, get back to your positive hippy self and spin us a few of your own ideas.

It's an idea, not a solution. There will be many solutions. Don't tease. What has your brain conjured?