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Ukraine

Being in vlads pocket isn't a good place to be as long as the rich corrupt bastards tow the line fine.
Nazis are organised and like a fight why the fuck is the eu encourgaging them god knows.
The ukrainian goverment is a bunch of corrupt incompetant bastards nazis like maoists only really begin to be seen as the answer when things have got really really shitty:(
 
They arnt once guns and petrol bombs are on the streets.
You dont really get a say :(
Not like the goverment is that legit:(
 
goldenecitrone said:
What do you think is the best outcome of this mess? New elections? More fighting?
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Any chance of you answering my questions? I mean it's not like you just to leave a glib i support the people soundbite unsupported is it? I mean you must know who they are in order to support them - right?

The best outcome? A realistic one or one that i would like to see? The first is short-term co-option elements of the opposition on a we-will-fuck everyone-togther basis, followed by the break up the country across with the south and east going into the customs union and the west and north entering into closer relations with the eu in the medium term and possible war in the longer term. The best? The w/c hanging the leaders of both sides setting up autonomous control via direct democracy (the far-right are already trying to do the first) but that's not going to happen is it?
 
I think the only way the west of south and east of the Ukraine will be broken away from the west is if the Russian Federation does a South Ossetia type operation.
 
Fuchs66 said:
I think the only way the west of south and east of the Ukraine will be broken away from the west is if the Russian Federation does a South Ossetia type operation.
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I don't think that's going to happen short-term tbh. If they do that there's a real possibility of war within russia as well. In addition unlike in South Ossetia the russian population is fairly evenly split throughout all areas of the country.

Basically if they did that it would be like yugoslavia again on a massive scale, there are other countries with territorial claims on ukraine too such as romania and hungary.
 
Actually this is a possibility I don't think it will happen yet, if it does there is a huge risk of a europe-wide war.
 
Maps:

ukraine-2004.jpg



ukraine-2010-election.jpg


Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png
 
frogwoman said:
I don't think that's going to happen short-term tbh. If they do that there's a real possibility of war within russia as well. In addition unlike in South Ossetia the russian population is fairly evenly split throughout all areas of the country.

Basically if they did that it would be like yugoslavia again on a massive scale, there are other countries with territorial claims on ukraine too such as romania and hungary.
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I agree it's a highly unlikely (and pretty horrific) scenario but I think it's the only realistic one for the creation of a breakaway south/east Ukrainian region.

E2A not to mention the Russians never did like the loss of full control of Sevastopol after the break up of the Soviet Union
 
Fuchs66 said:
I agree it's a highly unlikely (and pretty horrific) scenario but I think it's the only realistic one for the creation of a breakaway south/east Ukrainian region.

E2A not to mention the Russians never did like the loss of full control of Sevastopol after the break up of the Soviet Union
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Sevastopol is gonna be a massive issue, the Russians effectively do have control over it now. They have a huge military and naval base there. When I went to Ukraine in 2010 you could see it over the sea and all these Russian ships going in and out.

The crimean tartars are another factor in the whole thing. The community is probably more likely to support the Ukrainian government than Russia but with these fash you never know ...
 
frogwoman said:
It is, but the Ukrainian government can't do anything as it is leased to Russia. Although the lease is coming up for renewal in 2017 ...
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Only 3 years away, not a lot of time to consider a stategic redeployment of the Russian naval assets there if the Ukrainians got a bit shirty about the situation.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Only 3 years away, not a lot of time to consider a stategic redeployment of the Russian naval assets there if the Ukrainians got a bit shirty about the situation.
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I think the russian government don't think that's going to happen.
 
Fuchs66 said:
I think the only way the west of south and east of the Ukraine will be broken away from the west is if the Russian Federation does a South Ossetia type operation.
Click to expand...

When I was in Odessa in 2005 people were talking about partitioning Ukraine even then.

That would be a really, really, bad fucking idea.
 
likesfish said:
why the fuck is the eu encourgaging them god knows.
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Same reason as with elsewhere, the EU is a tool of the Americans and they are looking to spread chaos and disorder wherever they can that is outside the USopause. A Ukraine in disorder and flames represents a kick in the teeth for the security of Russia and a warm giddy glow for the United States, so who really gives a fuck whether Viktor Thisenko or Viktor Thatshenko believes they have achieved some sort of an advantage.

Muppets the lot of em if you ask me, wind em up and watch them go. Wouldn't be surprised if it all went Syria, the United States will be giggling uncontrollably if things ever get that far.
 
butchersapron said:
Any chance of you answering my questions? I mean it's not like you just to leave a glib i support the people soundbite unsupported is it? I mean you must know who they are in order to support them - right??
Click to expand...

I just mean ordinary Ukranians who want a better life, less corruption and some decent leaders. It's worrying that Svodoba seem to be attracting more and more of the protest vote. I used to live in Slovakia years back and I remember old Ukrainian women coming over the border at the weekend to sell big sacks of stuff at the local market for dollars. Slovakia then was five times cheaper than the UK, but five times more expensive than the Ukraine. The entire country was fucked, I don't think they even had a solid currency back then. Things have improved a bit over the last ten years, but things don't seem to be changing fast enough for some people.

butchersapron said:
The best outcome? A realistic one or one that i would like to see? The first is short-term co-option elements of the opposition on a we-will-fuck everyone-togther basis, followed by the break up the country across with the south and east going into the customs union and the west and north entering into closer relations with the eu in the medium term and possible war in the longer term. The best? The w/c hanging the leaders of both sides setting up autonomous control via direct democracy (the far-right are already trying to do the first) but that's not going to happen is it?
Click to expand...

Probably not. I really don't know what's going to happen or how the far right are going to be put back in their box. I just hope it doesn't disintegrate into civil war.
 
camouflage said:
Same reason as with elsewhere, the EU is a tool of the Americans and they are looking to spread chaos and disorder wherever they can that is outside the USopause. A Ukraine in disorder and flames represents a kick in the teeth for the security of Russia and a warm giddy glow for the United States, so who really gives a fuck whether Viktor Thisenko or Viktor Thatshenko believes they have achieved some sort of an advantage.

Muppets the lot of em if you ask me, wind em up and watch them go. Wouldn't be surprised if it all went Syria, the United States will be giggling uncontrollably if things ever get that far.
Click to expand...

No they won't.
 
goldenecitrone said:
I really don't know what's going to happen or how the far right are going to be put back in their box.
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They won't be put back in their box. How could they be? I mean, the only reason the government are offering concessions is that they are feeling increasingly impotent against the violence of the far right (who surely make up the bulk of those demonstrators/rioters at the front line?). If the full force of the state cannot suppress them, then how would the peaceful, non-fascist section of the opposition possibly hope to do so?
 
frogwoman said:
No they won't.
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The people of the US (sure, I agree) or the Thinktankers and Lobbyratchiks that come up with this sort of crap?

The color revolutions blaze on. You watch, the pattern for the year will be escalation escalation escalation, even though no Ukrainians of any persuasion are into it, except suspiciously well heeled fascists anyway.
 
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