Ukraine

[Idris2002]

Some of the first soldiers sent into belfast unwrapped the huge banner that. Told rioters to disperse only to discover it was in arabic
It did apprantly stop the stone throwing due to the wtf nature of the banner

According to the version of the story that I heard, it was in Cypriot Greek, but hey. . .

 

[rekil]

Svoboda, according to the Graun, represents the moderate protesters!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/29/ukraine-considers-amnesty-protesters#start-of-comments

That journo is rotten. I don't think there's been a single mention of the far-right in her articles.

http://www.theguardian.com/profile/oksana-grytsenko

 

[elbows]

That journo is rotten. I don't think there's been a single mention of the far-right in her articles.

http://www.theguardian.com/profile/oksana-grytsenko

Haven't read all her articles but going back to 2012 this is as far as she got in terms of Svoboda:

But the elections were also notable for the surprise breakthrough of a nationalist group called Svoboda (Freedom), which achieved 8% of the vote.

Svoboda is believed to have cashed in on residual anti-Russian sentiment, particularly following a language law passed in the summer that gave more status to the Russian language. Many Ukrainian-speaking voters decided to vote for the Svoboda party, thinking it would be ready to protect the Ukrainian culture, analysts said.

Oleh Taihnybok, leader of Svoboda, dismissed concerns that some in the party hold extreme nationalist views. "We are no antisemitic, we are no xenophobic party," he told the Guardian.

The political analyst Volodymyr Fesenko believes that thanks to Svoboda the new parliament will be even more turbulent than in the past. "This party will add more pepper into the Ukrainian borscht," he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/29/ukraine-president-election-majority-pro-russia

Given other factors that dominate Ukrainian politics and make it easy to write numerous long articles without even mentioning 'normal' political stuff like whether involved groups are left or right-wing, I am prepared to give specific journalists some benefit of the doubt in regards the woeful underreporting of nationalist and far-right involvement in the protests. This only stretches so far though, but I still have to keep it in mind.

I also suspect that there is a very understandable tendency for discussions on u75 to quickly focus on unpleasant far-right elements involved in particular protest movements. This should be focussed on, but it does mean we may occasionally miss a trick, some of the subtler nuances in regards to some of the participants. In this case I am simultaneously disgusted by some of the reporting that fails to mention the far-right, while also being concerned that those against the government who are not hideously right-wing or nationalistic are being too easily eliminated from our impression of the situation.

Likewise I suspect on a forum such as u75 we may sometimes rob ourselves of the opportunity to analyse and critique various nationalistic and populist stances and/or movements that fall well short of full-blown fascism. Again very understandable, but could, when applied to evolving situations, lead to hyperbole and excessive focus on the most extreme possible outcomes.

To compare to other situations of recent years, I only have to consider how I felt about the uprisings in various 'arab spring' countries. In plenty of these countries there were sizeable chunks of the opposition who were Islamists or economic liberals, not exactly giving me reasons to hope that any eventual revolution in those countries would feature a prevailing political smell that would be music to my nostrils. And there were no shortage of external actors backing a side and reducing the situation to the usual international power-play games where the masses are treated in much analysis as if they have mostly been relegated to the status of pawns. These hefty factors were not enough to make me write off the hopes of multitudes of people in those countries and reluctantly back the status quo. Or buy excitedly into dehumanising propaganda that labels all protesting people as terrorists, imperial stooges, drug-addled rat, royalists, etc. Not even when the rebels were killing innocent people in Libya, or when NATO was bombing, or when the Muslim Brotherhood had some power in Egypt, etc.

The situation in Ukraine has loads of stark differences from the Arab spring stuff. But I still want to at least sporadically attempt to repeat the same stance. At least in terms of not letting the wide array of shit actors and their various dodgy stances utterly overshadow empathy with those in Ukraine who rightly wish for and deserve more than all the crappy options on offer.

 

[frogwoman]

I agree, I'd be very wary of writing all the protesters off as fash

 

[Kaka Tim]

Its more the contortions the western media are making to avoid mentioning the far right in relation to Urkriaine that I find gobsmacking. And the violence of the past few weeks looks to me like the fascist street fighters have been let off the leash by the opposition in a bid to try and force the issue. It does not look like a spontaneous response to state violence - but a planned campaign.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Svoboda, according to the Graun, represents the moderate protesters!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/29/ukraine-considers-amnesty-protesters#start-of-comments

Fucking hell

 

[SpineyNorman]

Is there any info on Spilna Sprava anywhere? (sorry if this has already been covered - search didn't bring anything up). I've googled it but all I can find is that it translates to 'common cause' - the rest is all articles on loon sites that claim they're part of a George Soros conspiracy!

 

[pocketscience]

I agree, I'd be very wary of writing all the protesters off as fash

Then again I find it worrying that there are no signs of decent democracy loving, peaceful pro-Eu protesters expressing there anger at violent far right rioters at the barricades even though there's irrefutable evidence of fascist leaning elements there.
It certainly breeds a sense of ambivalence towards them due to how they're allowing their "cause" to be steered.
On the comments section of the guardian there's been a lot of people with what seems like Ukrainian names, who are on the ground in Kiew , saying that the violent groups are the right wing, but they've been sent in by the Putin. Which is frankly laughable.

 

[camouflage]

Some of the first soldiers sent into belfast unwrapped the huge banner that. Told rioters to disperse only to discover it was in arabic
It did apprantly stop the stone throwing due to the wtf nature of the banner

Psi-ops.

 

[camouflage]

Nods wisely.

 

[likesfish]

I'd imagine having a neighbour like putin doesnt tend to encourage normal politics.

 

[camouflage]

I'd imagine having a neighbour like putin doesnt tend to encourage normal politics.

Yup, it's a thing actually, being the small neighbour of a vast and powerful nation, like being the small rocky moon of a gas-giant. Look at Mexico, proper dingbatted from having the US sitting on it's head all this time, the economic field alone with the drugs-war leading to decapitations and mass executions, the blood-curdling dissapearances of women and political corruption on a massive scale, and that's not even because any particular president is a dick. Thanks fuck vigilantism is now on the rise, can you imagine someone saying that? Thank fuck for vigilantism? In this case the democratization of justice.... I reckon Ukraine and the former Eastern Block countries have gotten off relatively lightly compared to all that shite, outside of the wars and occupations anyway.

Mexico deserves it's own thread actually. I wonder if it's the same reason why Canada is getting worse....

 

[Idris2002]

What are we to make of this thing from the New York Times?

"If anyone is promoting hatred it is the government. My friend Josef Zissels, chairman of the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine, and vice president of the World Jewish Congress, wrote a few days ago that the website of Berkut, the special police force (and a final line of defense for the powers that be) had been “flooded with anti-Semitic materials that allege that the Jews are to blame for organizing at Maidan,” the central square, which has become synonymous with the protests.

Mr. Zissels wrote: “This is completely absurd, but those who are armed with batons and shields, now facing the protesters, believe this. They are brainwashed into believing that the Maidan is a Jewish project, and thus there is no need to take pity on anyone — you can beat them all.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/opinion/love-and-hatred-in-kiev.html?_r=0

 

[camouflage]

What are we to make of this thing from the New York Times?

"If anyone is promoting hatred it is the government. My friend Josef Zissels, chairman of the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine, and vice president of the World Jewish Congress, wrote a few days ago that the website of Berkut, the special police force (and a final line of defense for the powers that be) had been “flooded with anti-Semitic materials that allege that the Jews are to blame for organizing at Maidan,” the central square, which has become synonymous with the protests.

Mr. Zissels wrote: “This is completely absurd, but those who are armed with batons and shields, now facing the protesters, believe this. They are brainwashed into believing that the Maidan is a Jewish project, and thus there is no need to take pity on anyone — you can beat them all.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/opinion/love-and-hatred-in-kiev.html?_r=0

Hm, not read the article and have aboslutley no knowledge of the situation on the ground or Ukrainian culture generally so I'm perfectly qualified to point out that if the New York Times is accusing people of anti-semetism, doesn't that usually mean they want to encourage some sort of an attack against them? Dehumanize the target by accusing them of dehumanising jewish people, proceed to one big pile of dead Palistinians and not a Western tear shed, sort of thing?

 

[Kaka Tim]

What are we to make of this thing from the New York Times?

"If anyone is promoting hatred it is the government. My friend Josef Zissels, chairman of the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine, and vice president of the World Jewish Congress, wrote a few days ago that the website of Berkut, the special police force (and a final line of defense for the powers that be) had been “flooded with anti-Semitic materials that allege that the Jews are to blame for organizing at Maidan,” the central square, which has become synonymous with the protests.

Mr. Zissels wrote: “This is completely absurd, but those who are armed with batons and shields, now facing the protesters, believe this. They are brainwashed into believing that the Maidan is a Jewish project, and thus there is no need to take pity on anyone — you can beat them all.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/opinion/love-and-hatred-in-kiev.html?_r=0

I think a strain of anti-semitism is deeply ingrained into Ukrainian culture. So there may well be quite a lot of this within the cops - but the most visible anti-semites are Svoboda and the other fash types amongst the opposition.
Anyone know if there is much fash sympathy amongst the cops? Might explain the reluctance of the government to clear out the protests...

 

[J Ed]

Finally http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion

 

[frogwoman]

Hm, not read the article and have aboslutley no knowledge of the situation on the ground or Ukrainian culture generally so I'm perfectly qualified to point out that if the New York Times is accusing people of anti-semetism, doesn't that usually mean they want to encourage some sort of an attack against them? Dehumanize the target by accusing them of dehumanising jewish people, proceed to one big pile of dead Palistinians and not a Western tear shed, sort of thing?

Wtf?? Not necessarily. And it wouldn't surprise me if that was true. Being concerned about fash protests doesn't mean you have to support the state.

As I said before a lot of people do support things associated with the far right in Moldova for example (and it's true in Ukraine as well) not because they're necessarily fash but because they think joining the EU will lead to economic benefits, because they hate the government and are out there for unrelated reasons to what svoboda etc are, you name it

 

[frogwoman]

And BTW the USA attacking Ukraine would lead to world war. They have been encouraging anti-semitic tendencies in the Ukrainian government for years now, it isn't a prelude to an attack. And it has fuck all to do with Israel.

 

[frogwoman]

Yushchenko had links to UNA-UNSO ffs, as did several figures in Ukraine's orange revolution. Wtf? And why the fuck would the USA attack Ukraine anyway? Ukraine is a developed country, some parts of it don't look much different to London or Paris or other European cities. The USA wouldn't win a war (and the war would cone to them) and their entire strategy has been trying to keep the government on side with money etc. Its a mad idea.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Dunno if this is particularly relevant or not,but thought I'd stick it in here anyway: an hour-long TV thing on the current Ukraine situation: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/30/debate_is_ukraines_opposition_a_democratic

(No time for me to watch this now - but will do so after work later on today)

PS. Just checked to see whether Democracy Now is a conspiraloon/politically slanted etc site - they don't seem to be, from what I can tell right now.

 

[frogwoman]

i think they're left leaning democrats afaik, don't think they're anything to do with the loons

 

[DotCommunist]

And BTW the USA attacking Ukraine would lead to world war. They have been encouraging anti-semitic tendencies in the Ukrainian government for years now, it isn't a prelude to an attack. And it has fuck all to do with Israel.

it's not going to happen though is it? Obama's regime is talking isolationist/that other bit of the world that isn't old country tendencies. Middle eastern adventures aside.

it's all post cold war now right? Like a dodgy pub where everyone is armed and nobody fancies it.

 

[frogwoman]

it's not going to happen though is it? Obama's regime is talking isolationist/that other bit of the world that isn't old country tendencies. Middle eastern adventures aside.

it's all post cold war now right? Like a dodgy pub where everyone is armed and nobody fancies it.

no of course it's not going to happen, that's why that post is so ridiculous

 

[goldenecitrone]

President has been taken ill. Always worrying in Ukraine.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/ukrainian-protester-kidnapped-tortured-kiev-bulatov

Who's this guy?

 

[J Ed]

i think they're left leaning democrats afaik

To the left of the big d Democrats. They have Chomsky on a lot and Goodman has links to him way back to the East Timorese liberation struggle. I would say that they are almost as critical of the Democrats as they are of the Republicans.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, I have some time for them tbh.

 

[elbows]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/ukrainian-protester-kidnapped-tortured-kiev-bulatov

Who's this guy?

Most web searches for him only cover the kidnapping & subsequent release news. He is described variously as leader of automaiden, a leader of auto maiden, or spokesman for automaiden. (Car protest branch of euromaiden).

I haven't got much time for a more prolonged search today, but I did find a tweet about him from Jan 19th, predating the kidnap:

@myroslavapetsa
Automaidan leader Dmytro #Bulatov urges the 3 opposition leaders to act now and name the protest leader who'll lead&take responsibility

 

[pocketscience]

Dunno if this is particularly relevant or not,but thought I'd stick it in here anyway: an hour-long TV thing on the current Ukraine situation: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/30/debate_is_ukraines_opposition_a_democratic

(No time for me to watch this now - but will do so after work later on today)

PS. Just checked to see whether Democracy Now is a conspiraloon/politically slanted etc site - they don't seem to be, from what I can tell right now.

Thanks. Very interesting.
The NYU dude spoke some sense, especially at the end concerning US media reporting on Putin.
The UCL Ukrainian journo .. hmm:

I wrote the piece to highlight a very dangerous trend, in my opinion, is that many people in the West buy into Russian propaganda which is saying that Euromaidan is infiltrated by the neo-Nazis and anti-Semites. And this is completely untrue. There is a far-right element in the Euromaidan protests, but it is a minor element. And Euromaidan protest is basically a multicultural, democratic movement which is trying to build a new Ukraine, a democratic Ukraine. And sometimes, by the name "far right," there goes Ukrainian nationalism, and Ukrainian nationalism has—its main thrust is building of a truly independent Ukraine, a Ukraine which would be a national democratic state and not a colony of Russia, as Ukrainian nationalists think Ukraine is.

So the move towards Europe is a move towards democracy and away from the authoritarianism of Russia and its projected Eurasian union, which would unite several authoritarian states, like Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia. So Ukrainians do not want this. They want to be away from authoritarianism, and they struggle for democracy now in Ukraine. So, basically, Ukraine is now a front line of democratic Europe. And they’re not—Ukrainians are not only fighting for their own freedom, but they are fighting to stop authoritarianism to spread westwards.

I'd be interested in your take on this Casually Red. (CR I'm not digging you out here... no rants please ).. we had a discussion ages ago on here about whether the IRA was justified to accept help from the Nazis in WW2 (Sean Russell)... IIRC you said something along the lines that it was justified to use any means necessary to get colonial, authoritarian imperialists out of your country...
(Like I say, I'm not digging you out and by no means comparing the IRA to say Svoboda)

 

[frogwoman]

Thanks. Very interesting.
The NYU dude spoke some sense, especially at the end concerning US media reporting on Putin.
The UCL Ukrainian journo .. hmm:

I think that's whitewashing the history of nationalism in that country a bit

to say the fucking least