Ukraine

[pocketscience]

It certaily appears to me like that.
I personally have no time for either fascists or nationalists from any persuasion, especially when they're engaged, on the streets, in all the paramilitary garb... the line between the two starts to become dangerously thin to non existent IMO.

 

[seventh bullet]

The Eurasian Union will be trade bloc, like a Russian-CIS version of the European Union (which the EU doesn't like). It's not going to be Soviet Union: The Revenge. Western elites don't give a fuck about what Central Asian authoritarian rulers do to their people, anyway.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

I think that's whitewashing the history of nationalism in that country a bit

to say the fucking least

I'll send you a PM on this one in 2 mins or so.

 

[SpineyNorman]

*bump*

Anyone know the latest on this? Media seems to have gone a bit quiet on it now.

 

[elbows]

I didn't notice the media going quiet on it. On the detail of street protests and violence yes, but thats happened a lot before, since its dragging on and there are periods where not that much of media interest is happening.

Most recently media attention turned to that international conference where the atmosphere was chilly and strong rhetoric was being thrown around by all sides. That and attempts by both sides to use the Bulatov stuff as propaganda.

 

[pocketscience]

*bump*

Anyone know the latest on this? Media seems to have gone a bit quiet on it now.

There was a "Security" conference in Munich yesterday. Klitschko was invited to speak. Kerry was there too. Presumably they met in a Beer-Hall.
Here in Germany, the press are more concerned that German politicians (purposely) missed the chance to press the Americans on the NSA scandal, rather than inviting a political nobody (Klitschko) to have centre stage. I heard on the radio the Russians got a bit shirty at the conference. The silence on the details is deafening.
My guess, (as to the media silence) is that the west politicians' propaganda machine is starting to realise they're in a busted-flush cul-de-sac while Putin is winning the "hearts and minds" with a full house.

eta... elbows beat me to it

 

[SovietArmy]

Oh dear please no Klichko his a boxer with smashed the brain and he would lead Ukraine lol.

 

[Casually Red]

These hefty factors were not enough to make me write off the hopes of multitudes of people in those countries and reluctantly back the status quo. Or buy excitedly into dehumanising propaganda that labels all protesting people as terrorists, imperial stooges, drug-addled rat, royalists, etc. Not even when the rebels were killing innocent people in Libya, or when NATO was bombing, or when the Muslim Brotherhood had some power in Egypt, etc.

The situation in Ukraine has loads of stark differences from the Arab spring stuff. But I still want to at least sporadically attempt to repeat the same stance. At least in terms of not letting the wide array of shit actors and their various dodgy stances utterly overshadow empathy with those in Ukraine who rightly wish for and deserve more than all the crappy options on offer.

you keep going on about these decent, moderate, non stooges lurking somewhere in the midst of these fascist, wahhabist and imperialist sponsored melees . And yet whether its Libya, Syria or Ukraine you can never identify them . Are they ghosts ?
This simply sounds like desiring the outcome of otherthrowing the wests opponents but screwing up your nostrils at the distasteful means to arrive at it, to wash your hands clean of the stench of the side youve plumped for. Multitudes of decent people supported the nazi rise to power, just as theyve supported all sorts of other shit in the belief it will makes things better for them . Griffins BNP, Petain, Mussolini..all sorts.

And in all those scenarios the outcome of supporting those movements youve spoke of hope for was pretty predictable . Just as the destruction of Libya and the human catastrophe that followed and is ongoing was eminently forseeable. Just as it was in Syria, and now Ukraine . As it was in Germany .

These decent ghosts in Ukraine whoever they are have no problem standing shoulder to shoulder with unapologetic neo nazis. Under the banner of Bandera, which is everwhere. Himself honoured with statues and national honours. Those pro nazi sentiments plainly transcend the ranks of the neo nazis themselves and go into the mainstream body politic.
Im sorry but anyone armed with the advantage of historical hindsight, standing shoulder to shoulder with acknowleged neo nazis , who have such a prominent role, such people have abandoned their moral values, have no valid political position and arent worthy of anyones support in my view .

The nazis have a real chance of taking over Ukraine now, hand wringing supporting their victory on one hand but decrying its them who won..it isnt going to help the situation

As I said at the beginning this is a fascist coup, western backed. The presence in its ranks of decent Ukranian starry eyed hopefuls amidst the stormtroopers, whoever they might be, doesnt make it any less so.

 

[J Ed]

It's like Oprah and the secret, if you don't think it's gonna happen it never will!!!

 

[elbows]

you keep going on about these decent, moderate, non stooges lurking somewhere in the midst of these fascist, wahhabist and imperialist sponsored melees . And yet whether its Libya, Syria or Ukraine you can never identify them . Are they ghosts ?

They are ghosts to you, who without hesitation lapped up the very worst of the Gaddafi propaganda. You had absolutely no trouble in joining in with much gusto in the labelling of all opposition to Gaddafi as rats etc. As others were appalled by and mocked Gaddafi's speeches, you applauded them.

Elsewhere your stance is just as easy, backed by and almost inseparable from the propaganda organised by states such as Russia.

To suggest that the propagandists characterisation of all opposition to these states and regimes covers everything properly, and that the others I have described are imaginary ghosts, is nothing short of a total disgrace. It is not as if I seek to deny the existence of the groups you fixate on, but I'll be damned if I buy into the idea that they make up the entire picture or that I have failed to prove others exist.

Fuck you and the intolerable relegation of humans to pawns that your approach inevitably fosters. Your sloppy ingestion and repetition of propaganda dooms people to be simple tools in the hands of powerful entities that do not have worthy agendas. In that game the straightforward backing of either side is a mugs game that comes with fuck all moral high ground.

 

[Casually Red]

Thanks. Very interesting.
The NYU dude spoke some sense, especially at the end concerning US media reporting on Putin.
The UCL Ukrainian journo .. hmm:


I'd be interested in your take on this Casually Red. (CR I'm not digging you out here... no rants please ).. we had a discussion ages ago on here about whether the IRA was justified to accept help from the Nazis in WW2 (Sean Russell)... IIRC you said something along the lines that it was justified to use any means necessary to get colonial, authoritarian imperialists out of your country...
(Like I say, I'm not digging you out and by no means comparing the IRA to say Svoboda)

well as far as im concerned that Ukranian journalist is talking rubbish . The nazi flags and leaders are unmistakable not just on the streets of Meidan but in the opposition headquarters . On the political platforms, in the meetings with western leaders. Its the likes of Klitchsko being booed by the crowds and sprayed with fire extinguishers, not the nazis. To suugest their just bit players here is utter rubbish. Lies and confusion mongering .

The difference in accepting help was that Sean Russell refused to accept any assistance if it came with strings, particularly ideological. Hed just spent 10 years helping to smash fascism in Ireland and was hardly about to set about introducing it .

A military superpower was offering equipment and technology with no strings attached and any army in dire need of that will take it regardless of who they are or what their ideology is , just as the soviets accepted it from Britain and the US despite a long standing emnity. Moreover Sean Russel was stuck in the united states on bail and facing deportation, and ultimately an appointment with Pierrepoint when Germany offered to smuggle him out. It was that or certain death. And the first bit of co operation he asked for and got was the release of Irelands most senior and charismatic militant leftist, Frank Ryan, from one of Francos death camps.
It was also years prior to either Wannsee or the discovery of the camps. And only a matter of months after the British themselves had been openly hobnobbing with Herr Hitler. As had ..indeed were..the communists at the time .With whom Russell had a much longer standing relationship going back decades .

The nazis on the streets of Ukraine today openly honour those who engaged in widespread ethnic cleansing. They openly identify with them even to the point of uniforms and salutes and having the likes of Bandera proclaimed a hero of the nation . Theyre unapologetic. And the strings attached to the wests backing of their movement are also pretty clear. Economic Neo liberalism and militarist NATO expansionism.

Furthermore Russia neither militarily occupies Ukraine or claims sovereignty over it , unlike the British empires relationship to Ireland . Neither was the IRAs mission the ethnic cleansing of Ireland of those with impure blood, national minorities or any of that shit . Theres plenty of differences.

 

[Casually Red]

They are ghosts to you, who without hesitation lapped up the very worst of the Gaddafi propaganda. You had absolutely no trouble in joining in with much gusto in the labelling of all opposition to Gaddafi as rats etc. As others were appalled by and mocked Gaddafi's speeches, you applauded them.

Elsewhere your stance is just as easy, backed by and almost inseparable from the propaganda organised by states such as Russia.

To suggest that the propagandists characterisation of all opposition to these states and regimes covers everything properly, and that the others I have described are imaginary ghosts, is nothing short of a total disgrace. It is not as if I seek to deny the existence of the groups you fixate on, but I'll be damned if I buy into the idea that they make up the entire picture or that I have failed to prove others exist.

Fuck you and the intolerable relegation of humans to pawns that your approach inevitably fosters. Your sloppy ingestion and repetition of propaganda dooms people to be simple tools in the hands of powerful entities that do not have worthy agendas. In that game the straightforward backing of either side is a mugs game that comes with fuck all moral high ground.

now now, theres no need for foul language.

you were simply asked to identify these progressive ghosts among the various reactionary western sponsored putsches youve signalled your support for. Citing your support for these decent multitudes who hold no truck with the nasty elements who are invariably to the fore . Ill just assume your intemperate remarks and personal attacks on myself are directly related to your inability to do so .

 

[elbows]

I do not deny that protests or support of protests by the people I am talking about may lead them to unwittingly end up helping fascists, nationalists, right-wingers, the EU, oligarchs or others and their agendas. That doesn't mean they don't exist, that I should pretend they don't exist, or that I should simply turn my back on their hopes and fundamental rights.

Intemperate language in my book is the language of dehumanisation & generalisation. Including a language that seeks to herd people into very few camps and deal with them accordingly.

It is laughable and pathetic to suggest that there are no people in Ukraine who resent Russian influence but are not fascists etc. Or that some people would have felt the need to protest simply in response to how the authorities at times dealt with the protesters. There are also people in Ukraine who are upset with oligarchs, regardless of which side or group a particular oligarch is backing at that moment.

I do not know quite how you want me to identify them. By individual name perhaps? Because your narratives only seem to involve those who have been herded under a banner, with the factors and people I identify with being inconvenient to the propaganda you cling to. If someone sticks a black 'Al Qaeda' flag up in Benghazi, then everyone in the crowd is a terrorist, thats the way you like it.

 

[Casually Red]

I do not deny that protests or support of protests by the people I am talking about may lead them to unwittingly end up helping fascists, nationalists, right-wingers, the EU, oligarchs or others and their agendas. That doesn't mean they don't exist, that I should pretend they don't exist, or that I should simply turn my back on their hopes and fundamental rights.

Intemperate language in my book is the language of dehumanisation & generalisation. Including a language that seeks to herd people into very few camps and deal with them accordingly.

It is laughable and pathetic to suggest that there are no people in Ukraine who resent Russian influence but are not fascists etc. Or that some people would have felt the need to protest simply in response to how the authorities at times dealt with the protesters. There are also people in Ukraine who are upset with oligarchs, regardless of which side or group a particular oligarch is backing at that moment.

I do not know quite how you want me to identify them. By individual name perhaps? Because your narratives only seem to involve those who have been herded under a banner, with the factors and people I identify with being inconvenient to the propaganda you cling to. If someone sticks a black 'Al Qaeda' flag up in Benghazi, then everyone in the crowd is a terrorist, thats the way you like it.

your insistence on these useful idiots existence is so vague and wishy washy it simply points to them being conjured up in your own imagination as a necessary fig leaf to justify supporting reactionary western backed putsches on the basis of change...hopes..dreams...democracy..apple pie....whatever the nice sounding buzzword happens to be . Unfortunately they appear to be an invisible fig leaf.
Either they are fascists themselves or they are happy to be fascist allies, led by the nose by fascists . And soon to be ruled by them by the looks of things .
Just as your Benghazi moderates cheering on the beheadings were . And the syrian moderates were .
Not everyone who cheered Adolf Hitler through the streets was a member of the nazi party . It didnt make what they were supporting any less repugnant .

 

[elbows]

Libya is the only example where the accusation that I back reactionary western putsches even merits debate. To apply it anywhere else is utterly laughable and will only expose the suffocating confines that your stance offers to humanity.

For a start you make the mistake of thinking that I have simply supported one of the main sides in these places. Really the side I tend to back cannot win, not directly, though they can potentially benefit from the flux that the other sides create when they lock horns.

Secondly one of us tends to make themselves at home with one sides propaganda, while the other is reasonably interested in pointing out the propaganda of all sides, even when it is inconvenient to the argument at hand. This is not without implications, surely. For example I'm sure that you recall that I was rather into seeing the Gaddafi regime come unstuck. But if anyone was mad enough to try to re-read the original Libya thread, I spent a lot of time attempting to unwind anti-Gaddafi propaganda, and was not interested in pretending that rebel atrocities, including those along racial lines, did not exist.

From another angle: I haven't spent all that much time in the Syria thread because it was kind of obvious that things would be overshadowed by the Syrian regime's 'axis of evil' type status with the US etc, and then US-Russia dynamics. As best I recall you didn't focus that much attention on Egypt, presumably for the exact opposite reason - it didn't offer you so much fodder for the imperialist struggle narrative.

As for Ukraine, I've long made noises about the orange revolution there, the dodgy gas billionaire and the fawning over her plight in sections of our media, etc. And I have sometimes commented on broader anti-Russian propaganda in our press. But I am usually pretty vocal about vulgar Russian propaganda too.

I have never been interested in simply cheerleading for any of the attempts to change the power in countries via orange revolution templates. I was fond of picking at that template. These days we may have a new template on our hands, one that involves more street turmoil and isn't hinged on a straightforward attempt to undermine the legitimacy of recent elections. I will pick at that too, but it arguably at least potentially involves far more disparate groups of protesters and opposition,less overt control and stage-management. I'm not naive, all the other powerful players are still in the game, seeking outcomes for their own interest. But the potential of people, and the refusal to let all hope be extinguished, is not something to be sacrificed just because the usual stink still hangs in the air.

 

[elbows]

And the hopes & dreams stuff isn't wish-washy shit that makes my stance weak. Its the essence of struggle. Humans can and should demand more. The unquestioning backing of the lesser of two evils does not suffice. For example the fact that the Venezuelan opposition have a much worse agenda than the government does not mean the government should have a free pass. It does not mean that when I criticise something specific words or deeds of the Chavez or post-Chavez government, that I am simply a tool of the opposition. Yet thats what some of you come out with every time I go there. Thats a healthy approach is it, one thats better for people?

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="elbows, post: 12902281, member:

Libya is the only example where the accusation that I back reactionary western putsches even merits debate. To apply it anywhere else is utterly laughable and will only expose the suffocating confines that your stance offers to humanity.

but youre at it again concerning Ukraine , the very same thing . I wouldnt be criticising your posts otherwise

For a start you make the mistake of thinking that I have simply supported one of the main sides in these places. Really the side I tend to back cannot win, not directly, though they can potentially benefit from the flux that the other sides create when they lock horns.

you cant even identify them, you appear merely to be conjuring up their existence . In order for you to more comfortably express your support for the coup in the first place on the basis of these do gooders supposed existence. Whoever this side is they dont appear to be an organised bloc or party, they appear to have no political programme, no political platform or forum, no flags, no spokespersons, no leaders. Not even Guy Fawkes masks . Yet again they appear to be ephemeral, hence my ghost description .

Secondly one of us tends to make themselves at home with one sides propaganda, while the other is reasonably interested in pointing out the propaganda of all sides, even when it is inconvenient to the argument at hand. This is not without implications, surely. For example I'm sure that you recall that I was rather into seeing the Gaddafi regime come unstuck. But if anyone was mad enough to try to re-read the original Libya thread, I spent a lot of time attempting to unwind anti-Gaddafi propaganda, and was not interested in pretending that rebel atrocities, including those along racial lines, did not exist.

whatever...you were openly supporting NATOs imperialist war against Libya, its aims, its methods, its players . Even its false colonialist morality, its false justification, the downright arrogance and criminality of the entire criminal enterprise from start to finish. You were supporting the inherent right of the imperialist countries to violently overthrow sovereign states who werent committing either aggression or genocide. A crime they engaged in Iraq prior to that. As well as dismissing the easily forseeable consequences of the bombing succeeding in its objective . And then wringing your hands about it afterwards when the inevitable and completely forseeable happened.

and now youre at a similar caper regarding Ukraine, again proclaiming the existence of a side of good,honesty and virtue that you can see but are unable to point out to anyone. And these ephemeral wraiths serving as your basis for supporting another western backed coup .[/quote]

 

[Casually Red]

And the hopes & dreams stuff isn't wish-washy shit that makes my stance weak. Its the essence of struggle. Humans can and should demand more. The unquestioning backing of the lesser of two evils does not suffice. For example the fact that the Venezuelan opposition have a much worse agenda than the government does not mean the government should have a free pass. It does not mean that when I criticise something specific words or deeds of the Chavez or post-Chavez government, that I am simply a tool of the opposition. Yet thats what some of you come out with every time I go there. Thats a healthy approach is it, one thats better for people?

ive no real problem with you criticising something . My problems when you start expressing support for western backed coups against such countries. For criminal aggression against sovereign states on the basis of invisible do gooders in the opposition camp deemed worthy of your support.

 

[elbows]

I have not expressed support for a coup. I haven't even expressed support for the protest movement.

I make no apology for taking interest in stuff that tends to get overshadowed. Because thats all I've done on this thread.

NATO getting involved in Libya and the likes of Blair using morality and interest in peoples lives being better as propaganda doesn't mean I must retreat from giving a shit lest I appear to be walking in the footsteps of mass murderers.

When it comes to Ukraine these are not weasel words on my part. I don't relish the overthrow of the present Ukrainian president, intending to shrug if such eventualities played right into the hands of fascists, oligarchs or the west. For a start much of my enthusiasm about regimes falling down in the arab world was sponsored by the length of time that the 'great leaders' in question had been in power, and the prospect of many of them passing power to the next generation of their family. That and the sense of dignity and renewed possibilities that arose when people long subjected to harsh treatment broke down the walls of fear.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Was chatting to a mate who worked over their for 6 years as a musician and came to the UK a year ago. He says that Yanakovych is widely hated and seen as an authoritarian throw back (i.e. like trying to lass a law insisting that bands set lists be submitted to the authorities before they get to play a gig). The sense I got from him is that so many people are so keen to get shot of him that they readily ignore or dismiss the dodgey fash elements within the protest movement.

 

[elbows]

Interesting leak.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26072281

An apparently hacked phone conversation during which a senior US diplomat disparages the EU over the Ukraine crisis has been posted online.

A voice resembling that of Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland reportedly refers to the EU using a graphic swear word.

The US said Ms Nuland had "apologised for these reported comments".

The audio also reveals a frank exchange about America's strategy on how to work with Ukraine's main opposition leaders.

'Fuck the EU'

 

[J Ed]

The video explicitly endorses the extraparliamentary use of svoboda.

 

[pocketscience]

Kudos to the Russians. Succinct yet hilarious, on so many levels.

 

[Kaka Tim]

The video explicitly endorses the extraparliamentary use of svoboda.

Didn't spot that. Whereabouts?

 

[J Ed]

Didn't spot that. Whereabouts?

It's in there, she talks about how they want Tiahnybok (leader of Svoboda) on the outside.

 

[gamma globulins]

you keep going on about these decent, moderate, non stooges lurking somewhere in the midst of these fascist, wahhabist and imperialist sponsored melees . And yet whether its Libya, Syria or Ukraine you can never identify them . Are they ghosts ?

I can identify them. I know some of them.

I imagine these people know do too: http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11224.html

Please do not paint all of the movement with such a broad brush. As I understand it, currently there is little coherent politics in the maidan, beyond outsting Yanukovych, who has pocketed millions personally, and whom many feel has sold their country to Russia. Whatever the truth of this last allegation, the maidan developed as a direct result of government attempts to crack down on public protest (and reflects something we could have used ourselves in 2010), and everything that has happened since has involved a large and quite loose coalition of individuals from various backgrounds (including some in the the country's east), all working together in Spilna sprava (“Common cause”). Some will not be satisfied until the whole parliament steps down, others will probably settle for some sort of power-sharing agreement.

Oh dear please no Klichko his a boxer with smashed the brain and he would lead Ukraine lol.

He does have a PhD you know.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I can identify them. I know some of them.

I imagine these people know do too: http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11224.html

Please do not paint all of the movement with such a broad brush. As I understand it, currently there is little coherent politics in the maidan, beyond outsting Yanukovych, who has pocketed millions personally, and whom many feel has sold their country to Russia. Whatever the truth of this last allegation, the maidan developed as a direct result of government attempts to crack down on public protest (and reflects something we could have used ourselves in 2010), and everything that has happened since has involved a large and quite loose coalition of individuals from various backgrounds (including some in the the country's east), all working together in Spilna sprava (“Common cause”). Some will not be satisfied until the whole parliament steps down, others will probably settle for some sort of power-sharing agreement.


He does have a PhD you know.

Hi gamma globulins Would you agree that the far right are the biggest and most coherent force in the actual street protests?

 

[Casually Red]

I can identify them. I know some of them.

I imagine these people know do too: http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11224.html

Please do not paint all of the movement with such a broad brush. As I understand it, currently there is little coherent politics in the maidan, beyond outsting Yanukovych, who has pocketed millions personally, and whom many feel has sold their country to Russia. Whatever the truth of this last allegation, the maidan developed as a direct result of government attempts to crack down on public protest (and reflects something we could have used ourselves in 2010), and everything that has happened since has involved a large and quite loose coalition of individuals from various backgrounds (including some in the the country's east), all working together in Spilna sprava (“Common cause”). Some will not be satisfied until the whole parliament steps down, others will probably settle for some sort of power-sharing agreement.


He does have a PhD you know.

weve listened to Nulands tape,shes picking the government in waiting after the coup. And theres fascists galore in the maidan , we can see them. Theyre running the show down there.

 

[Casually Red]

He does have a PhD you know.

he can have 50 phds, the west havent picked him as the leader, so he wont be .

 

[gamma globulins]

Hi gamma globulins Would you agree that the far right are the biggest and most coherent force in the actual street protests?

They may well be the most organised, and I wouldn't be shocked if they were over-represented in "picked" battles with the Berkut, but I do not think that they are a majority of those in the protest camps. I also get the impression that their overall political position is considered secondary to other people in the maidan to the support they offer to the current cause.

he can have 50 phds, the west havent picked him as the leader, so he wont be .

Well that was addressed to SovietArmy (who is happy to make uninformed comments on the intelligence of people he's not met, yet fails to proofread his own posts). But since you bring it up, who have they picked then? I read the Nulands tape as a tension between the EU and the US (and Russia of course, who are the chief suspect for bugging the call and releasing the recording), who are vyeing with each for a controlling influence over the next government of Ukraine. But that's the problem in a nutshell, Ukrainians want candidates who are working for their own country, not for the EU, Russia or the US. If all other options seem like puppets for foreign governments, then Svoboda (with its strong nationalist rhetoric) will become much more popular by default. Yet Ukraine is too politically valuable for the surrounding powers to allow them to choose their own way.