frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The US ruling class does not want the "partition" and almost certain war in Ukraine. If this happened it would degenerate rapidly into a Europe-wide war.
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
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The US ruling class does not want the "partition" and almost certain war in Ukraine. If this happened it would degenerate rapidly into a Europe-wide war.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
I contend that playing with fire has served them well enough by their own standars at least, so now they are used to it. They call it 'creative destruction' now, it means new opportunities and new markets.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Not like this.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Who specifically calls what 'creative destruction'?
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
19th Novernber 2013: Ukraine lost 3-0 to france and were eliminated from the World Cup
21st November 2013: First day of Euromaiden Protests.
I wounder if the course Ukraine political history would be different if their national football team would be heading for Brazil?
21st November 2013: First day of Euromaiden Protests.
I wounder if the course Ukraine political history would be different if their national football team would be heading for Brazil?
disco_dave_2000
la la lapland
I've only read the last two pages of this thread, so apologies if these amazing photos have already been posted - http://petapixel.com/2014/01/27/revolution-kiev-ukraine/
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
The modern bourgeoisie is like a sorceror's apprentice, who has called up forces he cannot control, as two men with beards once said.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
See, that's exactly the sort of response I'd expect somebody like you to come out with, you don't have a fucking clue, you sane people with your 'ration' and 'reason' and 'woah woah woah come on now, let's not get carried away' sort of thinking. Whereas the Strangelove Gang are all like:
"Now we can really stick it to these fuckers, ideally it would be great if things degenerate into massive blood-shed, it's always easier to ensure US Primacy when there's massive bloodshed because it gives us Maximum Freedom of Decision, we can Drone the fuck out of whoever we deem fit to do. Ultimately, all of the Earth will become Yemenized."
just my opinion mind.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Well, to be fair that's a neocon term, but it's probably gospel now in Washington.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
It'd be great if they wern't fascists, but they are so not so great.
http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I don't think that either of these things are true. I'm a little perplexed as to where you got this idea, the only people I have heard talk about neoconservativism and creative destruction are paleoconservaties who link the foreign policy of the Bush years to the Trotskyist roots of a couple of policy advisors.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Can't say I've ever heard the term used in that context. I always thought it was one coined by Schumpeter to describe technology shocks and the business cycle. I.e. that recessions are a way of clearing away the old in place for the new; the destruction (in the economic sense) of Capital as a creative process. Then again, maybe the physical destruction of Capital serves that aim too. Can't see how this would be worthwhile in a place like Ukraine though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Bakunin
elbows
Well-Known Member
It is certainly true that the likes of Zbigniew Brzezinski went on and on about the significance of this region in books like 'The Grand Chessboard'. But there is a difference between the fantasies these people wank over and how far the US machine is actually prepared to go, especially when it comes to confrontations involving Russia, and the fate of Europe.
For example Georgia. When Russia decided to act on that front, where were 'the Strangelove Gang' then? They folded.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
The destruction of a standing set of political and economic relationships orientating the region towards a rival center of power?
I should admit that so far I've been a hit tongue in cheek. But considering that Ukraines economy is so much more related to Russia than the EU, where does all this momentum come from to rip Ukraine from its current and historical context and point it toward distant economies that play a much smaller role in terms of the average Ukrainians daily bread and to whome the Ukraine itself is considered merely peripheral at best?
Surely it's a myth that political reforms are only possible in the context of throwing away everything you are and have been and attaching oneself firmly to the butt of the West, claiming to have been adjacent to Munich or something all along. Madness, somebody's got to be playing someone for something and I doubt the welfare of Ukrainians are anything to do with it.
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camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Sure they folded... this time. *hisses, swishes cape, retreats into the shadows for now*
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
You don't remember "Iron" David Miliband strutting around Tibilisi promising Russia that "the west will not forget this"?
OK so David M is/was obviously a pointless nobody, I think there's plenty of scope for thinking the western axis is quite happy to deal with the consequences of its meddling in the Ukraine, even if those include civil war and partition. It's all containable.
elbows
Well-Known Member
You don't remember "Iron" David Miliband strutting around Tibilisi promising Russia that "the west will not forget this"?
OK so David M is/was obviously a pointless nobody, I think there's plenty of scope for thinking the western axis is quite happy to deal with the consequences of its meddling in the Ukraine, even if those include civil war and partition. It's all containable.
There is some scope, but I wouldn't say there is plenty. Things like European gas supply security put a damper on some of the more extreme and blasé stances.
Tooter
Well-Known Member
What are the anti-government protesters demands apart from the corrupt president stepping down? Have they demanded Tymoshenko be released from jail?
Sounds like yet again the people are being fucked over between EU/Russian power struggles regarding natural gas and oil. Some dark forces at work it would seem
Sounds like yet again the people are being fucked over between EU/Russian power struggles regarding natural gas and oil. Some dark forces at work it would seem
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
my thoughts exactly. Theyll want payback for that.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
I assume something has been lost in translation here:
01. One of the main barricades in Institutskaya Street. The barricade has been stormed several times and it is now the most stable. You see its exterior. Note that at the front this 5-meter-high barricade is stabilized with ropes, hedgehogs and barrels.
teqniq
DisMembered
SpineyNorman you must be concerned for your Ukrainian brethren.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
rekil
to menny cranks
A hedgehog is just a type of anti-vehicle obstacle.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Well we have all the desert patrol kit we brought for afgahistan ideal for a 2017 peace keeping tour of the ukraine
"You must have very clever soldiers".
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Trust no-one, Agent Mulder.
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likesfish
You can't park here sir
Some of the first soldiers sent into belfast unwrapped the huge banner that. Told rioters to disperse only to discover it was in arabic"You must have very clever soldiers".
It did apprantly stop the stone throwing due to the wtf nature of the banner
Its all covered in the links BA and froggie posted. But basically different factions want different things but in order to show some unity they are uniting under flags of convenience such as support for the EU agreement and the release of Tymoshenko. In reality Kitschko wants to be elected so he can play the president on the global scene, the oligarchs want access to the EU markets and the fash want what the fash always want.
Sounds like yet again the people are being fucked over between EU/Russian power struggles regarding natural gas and oil. Some dark forces at work it would seem
Well yes but its worth noting that a lot of 'the people' appear to be quite right wing to say the least, I think Svoboda got 20% in Kiev at the last election, that's quite a lot of support for the fash. So when we talk about the people being fucked over we probably need to concentrate on who the people are and what they want from their country.
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pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Svoboda, according to the Graun, represents the moderate protesters!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/29/ukraine-considers-amnesty-protesters#start-of-comments
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