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Ukraine

camouflage said:
The people of the US (sure, I agree) or the Thinktankers and Lobbyratchiks that come up with this sort of crap?
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The US ruling class does not want the "partition" and almost certain war in Ukraine. If this happened it would degenerate rapidly into a Europe-wide war.
 
frogwoman said:
The US ruling class does not want the "partition" and almost certain war in Ukraine. If this happened it would degenerate rapidly into a Europe-wide war.
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I contend that playing with fire has served them well enough by their own standars at least, so now they are used to it. They call it 'creative destruction' now, it means new opportunities and new markets.
 
19th Novernber 2013: Ukraine lost 3-0 to france and were eliminated from the World Cup
21st November 2013: First day of Euromaiden Protests.

I wounder if the course Ukraine political history would be different if their national football team would be heading for Brazil?
 
frogwoman said:
Not like this.
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See, that's exactly the sort of response I'd expect somebody like you to come out with, you don't have a fucking clue, you sane people with your 'ration' and 'reason' and 'woah woah woah come on now, let's not get carried away' sort of thinking. Whereas the Strangelove Gang are all like:

"Now we can really stick it to these fuckers, ideally it would be great if things degenerate into massive blood-shed, it's always easier to ensure US Primacy when there's massive bloodshed because it gives us Maximum Freedom of Decision, we can Drone the fuck out of whoever we deem fit to do. Ultimately, all of the Earth will become Yemenized."

just my opinion mind.
 
camouflage said:
Well, to be fair that's a neocon term, but it's probably gospel now in Washington.
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I don't think that either of these things are true. I'm a little perplexed as to where you got this idea, the only people I have heard talk about neoconservativism and creative destruction are paleoconservaties who link the foreign policy of the Bush years to the Trotskyist roots of a couple of policy advisors.
 
camouflage said:
Well, to be fair that's a neocon term, but it's probably gospel now in Washington.
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Can't say I've ever heard the term used in that context. I always thought it was one coined by Schumpeter to describe technology shocks and the business cycle. I.e. that recessions are a way of clearing away the old in place for the new; the destruction (in the economic sense) of Capital as a creative process. Then again, maybe the physical destruction of Capital serves that aim too. Can't see how this would be worthwhile in a place like Ukraine though.
 
camouflage said:
See, that's exactly the sort of response I'd expect somebody like you to come out with, you don't have a fucking clue, you sane people with your 'ration' and 'reason' and 'woah woah woah come on now, let's not get carried away' sort of thinking. Whereas the Strangelove Gang are all like:

"Now we can really stick it to these fuckers, ideally it would be great if things degenerate into massive blood-shed, it's always easier to ensure US Primacy when there's massive bloodshed because it gives us Maximum Freedom of Decision, we can Drone the fuck out of whoever we deem fit to do. Ultimately, all of the Earth will become Yemenized."

just my opinion mind.
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It is certainly true that the likes of Zbigniew Brzezinski went on and on about the significance of this region in books like 'The Grand Chessboard'. But there is a difference between the fantasies these people wank over and how far the US machine is actually prepared to go, especially when it comes to confrontations involving Russia, and the fate of Europe.

For example Georgia. When Russia decided to act on that front, where were 'the Strangelove Gang' then? They folded.
 
cynicaleconomy said:
Can't say I've ever heard the term used in that context. I always thought it was one coined by Schumpeter to describe technology shocks and the business cycle. I.e. that recessions are a way of clearing away the old in place for the new; the destruction (in the economic sense) of Capital as a creative process. Then again, maybe the physical destruction of Capital serves that aim too. Can't see how this would be worthwhile in a place like Ukraine though.
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The destruction of a standing set of political and economic relationships orientating the region towards a rival center of power?

I should admit that so far I've been a hit tongue in cheek. But considering that Ukraines economy is so much more related to Russia than the EU, where does all this momentum come from to rip Ukraine from its current and historical context and point it toward distant economies that play a much smaller role in terms of the average Ukrainians daily bread and to whome the Ukraine itself is considered merely peripheral at best? :confused:

Surely it's a myth that political reforms are only possible in the context of throwing away everything you are and have been and attaching oneself firmly to the butt of the West, claiming to have been adjacent to Munich or something all along. Madness, somebody's got to be playing someone for something and I doubt the welfare of Ukrainians are anything to do with it.
 
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elbows said:
It is certainly true that the likes of Zbigniew Brzezinski went on and on about the significance of this region in books like 'The Grand Chessboard'. But there is a difference between the fantasies these people wank over and how far the US machine is actually prepared to go, especially when it comes to confrontations involving Russia, and the fate of Europe.

For example Georgia. When Russia decided to act on that front, where were 'the Strangelove Gang' then? They folded.
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Sure they folded... this time. *hisses, swishes cape, retreats into the shadows for now*
 
elbows said:
For example Georgia. When Russia decided to act on that front, where were 'the Strangelove Gang' then? They folded.
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:D

You don't remember "Iron" David Miliband strutting around Tibilisi promising Russia that "the west will not forget this"?

OK so David M is/was obviously a pointless nobody, I think there's plenty of scope for thinking the western axis is quite happy to deal with the consequences of its meddling in the Ukraine, even if those include civil war and partition. It's all containable.
 
co-op said:
:D

You don't remember "Iron" David Miliband strutting around Tibilisi promising Russia that "the west will not forget this"?

OK so David M is/was obviously a pointless nobody, I think there's plenty of scope for thinking the western axis is quite happy to deal with the consequences of its meddling in the Ukraine, even if those include civil war and partition. It's all containable.
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There is some scope, but I wouldn't say there is plenty. Things like European gas supply security put a damper on some of the more extreme and blasé stances.
 
What are the anti-government protesters demands apart from the corrupt president stepping down? Have they demanded Tymoshenko be released from jail?

Sounds like yet again the people are being fucked over between EU/Russian power struggles regarding natural gas and oil. Some dark forces at work it would seem :(
 
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Well we have all the desert patrol kit we brought for afgahistan ideal for a 2017 peace keeping tour of the ukraine:mad:
 
Virtual Blue said:
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/986689.html
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I assume something has been lost in translation here:

01. One of the main barricades in Institutskaya Street. The barricade has been stormed several times and it is now the most stable. You see its exterior. Note that at the front this 5-meter-high barricade is stabilized with ropes, hedgehogs and barrels.

01.jpg
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Tooter said:
What are the anti-government protesters demands apart from the corrupt president stepping down? Have they demanded Tymoshenko be released from jail?
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Its all covered in the links BA and froggie posted. But basically different factions want different things but in order to show some unity they are uniting under flags of convenience such as support for the EU agreement and the release of Tymoshenko. In reality Kitschko wants to be elected so he can play the president on the global scene, the oligarchs want access to the EU markets and the fash want what the fash always want.

Sounds like yet again the people are being fucked over between EU/Russian power struggles regarding natural gas and oil. Some dark forces at work it would seem :(
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Well yes but its worth noting that a lot of 'the people' appear to be quite right wing to say the least, I think Svoboda got 20% in Kiev at the last election, that's quite a lot of support for the fash. So when we talk about the people being fucked over we probably need to concentrate on who the people are and what they want from their country.
 
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