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Ukraine

SpineyNorman said:
I can't believe that there are still people who seem to think these protests are somehow progressive and pro-democracy.
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Its not always as simple as that

Shortly before I came to Moldova there were protests against the (pro-russian) Communist party government by opposition groups, many of whom were far right and a lot who were pro European liberals.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Moldova_civil_unrest

A group who was involved in the protests was the Romanian nationalist movement Basarabia pamant Romanesc (Bessarabia is Romanian land) they ended up occupying government buildings, setting fire to them etc. Eventually the protests and the international reaction to them ended up putting in power a coalition of pro-EU parties and far right Romanian nationalist parties after the vote was recounted.

Politist_arborare_drapel_UE_proteste_Chisinau_2009.jpg


Miting-Noua-Dreapta---Tiganii-nu-s-romani--si--Laszlo-Tokes-este-o-mizerie-.jpg


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2009%20Protests%20(11).jpg



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The protests were organized by groups such as the pro-EU Hyde park and curaj.net, which as I discovered also produced racist anti-russian material.

Once in power the coalition promptly introduced an austerity programme which was initially targeted at groups such as pensioners and war veterans etc who more likely to support the communist party and see themselves as ethnic Russians or Moldovans. Surprisingly a lot of people there supported this. They also changed the day of the Christmas bank holiday to December 25th from January 6th.

There were reasons why people supported the protests - a lot of people supported them who weren't far right or nationalist at all. The communist party in Moldova was extremely corrupt and basically didn't have anything communist about it at all apart from being a pro ethnic Russian party. There was a huge amount of poverty and corruption and many people thought being part of the EU would help prevent this. The far left there is practically non existent, tbh (not that it would necessarily make any difference if it wasn't)

I think what also happens is that support for particular stances for some people anyway ends up going along ethnic lines, so opposition to the EU would end up being seen as 'communist' and pro Russian..
 


I saw quite a few fash demos when I was there including a big 'Basarabia Pamant Romanesc' one outside the parliament with no obvious fash symbols. Not realizing at the time they were fash (because a lot of people I know had expressed similar views and the organisations had been prsented in quite a favourable light from what id read in the media) went up and asked them what they were protesting against, they said corruption, etc, they gave me a leaflet and it was only when I got home and read it properly that I saw how racist it actually was.

I saw open fash (people with 'white pride' flags, Celtic crosses etc) on my way to work etc on a couple of other occasions, with no opposition :( there would also be people in the main square wearing slogans with 'Basarabia pamant Romanesc' and other slogans - it was associated with being pro EU when I was there :(
 
There seems to have been a pattern of this across eastern Europe.
It has less to do with politics (democracy/ anti-corruption etc) rather than regional minorities looking appease to a more powerful, richer Germany using the symbolic, chest beating they know from Germany's travails of the 30/40s and acting in the hope they get some good old fashioned order and a few BMWs thrown into the bargain.
The irony is that with the Eu's democratic deficiencies becoming more obvious and the economic woes of Greece causing some Eu soul searching, Germany keeps getting caught with it's pants down due to its direct involvement in the very corruption that these groups want away from:
http://www.spiegel.de/international...bribed-their-way-to-greek-deals-a-693973.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/business/worldbusiness/16siemens.html?ref=technology&_r=0

ETA:
Actually it's not ironic at all but quite intentional. By crying corruption with any political system aligned to Russia and wanting a re-alignment to the Eu is just a call to move from one kind of corruption to another, with the hope of being on the receiving end of some kick-backs in the transition. I think Klitschko's doing a blatant job personifying this strategy today.
 
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pocketscience said:
Let me guess: Svoboda gave him an ultimatum (they weren't invited to the table) that if he takes any seat, they'll continue to revolt..
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possible of course but i think it more likely hes just doing what Berlin are telling him . The fash and even Yatseyuk are simply too distasteful for the Germans to sell to their public as the new Ukranian democratic partner . Klitschko has been created for the very purpose of being the acceptable face of the putsch . If he takes that lesser post hes doomed forever to Nick Clegg status and then wont be fit for purpose . His envisaged role in Berlin is to be the cherry on top of the nazi turd, not a peanut in the middle of it .
 
pocketscience said:
Svoboda are basically stealing the show with violence, and the momentum seems to be growing.
The fact that the west's media and politicians are not picking up on this to push for a peaceful resolution, rather than using the opportunity to take cheap, moralistic jabs at Russia is fucking scary.
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The wests politicians are behind Svoboda, the fash are the people who will effect the change the west wants . Nobody else can .Weve seen the wests top representatives out on the streets standing 4 square with them, handing food to them, shaking their hands and sitting down to conferences with them. Calling on the world to support them and making sure their pet western media doesnt out them as nazi scum they are .
John McCain doesnt need to fret about upsetting the washington zionist lobby by openly hobnobbing with neo nazis simply because the fix is in at the highest level.

Where do you think all these tens of thousands of fascists are getting the means to feed and clothe themselves and their families, to keep their lives going for months on end when theyre out blocking the streets taking over government buildings and not at work ? Wonga loans ? Salvation army ? Of course not . From the same place Solidarity got the means to do pretty much the same back in the 80s and early 90s . Suitcases full of cash coming from western intelligence agencies .

And theyre not using the opportunity simply to say nasty things bout Russia . This is solely about inflicting a serious geo political defeat against Russia . Its the great game in action in the 21st century . With nazis as the attack dogs of western imperialism and capitalism yet again .
 
pocketscience said:
As CR (I think) already said, there are large amounts of police that sympathise with sections of the protesters. The video wasn't in Kiev but a regional city 200 km SW of the capital. They're probably just appearing to resist.
Yanukowich may well be losing control. The question is, will Russia send in troops to support. that would be very worrying.
As I said, I think the end game's coming sooner rather than later.
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I dunno, those are interior ministry cops, not local beat plod . Theyd be drawn from accross Ukraine . The Berkut fucked up at the beginning by letting themselves be filmed hammering the fash . That handed the pro western local media as well the western media and politicians the opportunity to frame this as brutal dictatorship vs peaceful democracy protestors and got the fash a lot of local and international sympathy.

I think theres an eye on the Syrian experience here . To sit and take beatings like that and not even lift a baton to hit back, to watch your own guys getting dragged away by nazis...those have to be some serious orders from the top not to respond to provocations no matter what . Old school soviet style...here is the plan, no deviations or else . If they were locals sympathetic to the fash youd expect some sort of rapprochement between them . There plainly isnt from the beating theyre taking .

I noted from that video of the naked nazi , apparently too exceptionally accurate with molotovs for his own good, while he was getting the odd dig there were also Berkut present who seemed very uncomfortable with it, and were sort of trying to stop the others . It didnt strike me as out of any sympathy with the nazi, simply because there were cameras present and they had orders not to be seen acting in a brutal manner . So again, that points to them being given very firm directions from the top .

If thats true that would also mean that if the order is given to go on the offensive therell be some serious payback in store .
 
Casually Red said:
I dunno, those are interior ministry cops, not local beat plod . Theyd be drawn from accross Ukraine . The Berkut fucked up at the beginning by letting themselves be filmed hammering the fash . That handed the pro western local media as well the western media and politicians the opportunity to frame this as brutal dictatorship vs peaceful democracy protestors and got the fash a lot of local and international sympathy.

I think theres an eye on the Syrian experience here . To sit and take beatings like that and not even lift a baton to hit back, to watch your own guys getting dragged away by nazis...those have to be some serious orders from the top not to respond to provocations no matter what . Old school soviet style...here is the plan, no deviations or else . If they were locals sympathetic to the fash youd expect some sort of rapprochement between them . There plainly isnt from the beating theyre taking .

I noted from that video of the naked nazi , apparently too exceptionally accurate with molotovs for his own good, while he was getting the odd dig there were also Berkut present who seemed very uncomfortable with it, and were sort of trying to stop the others . It didnt strike me as out of any sympathy with the nazi, simply because there were cameras present and they had orders not to be seen acting in a brutal manner . So again, that points to them being given very firm directions from the top .

If thats true that would also mean that if the order is given to go on the offensive therell be some serious payback in store .
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Hang on, do we know for certain the naked guy was fash?
 
Interesting to see on BBC News footage of the dead protesters funeral, and the coffin carriers wearing the following symbol on their arms:

UNA-UNSO_symbol.jpg


No mention whatsoever by the BBC about what that symbol represents, i.e. the Ukrainain National Alliance.


• Formed on 30 June 1990, registered on 29 December 1994. Banned on 6 September 1995, re-registered on 29 September 1997.
• Leader: Yuriy Shukevych (b. 1933).
• Symbol: a white trident and the Ukrainian letters “UNSO” inserted in a black Teutonic cross on a red background.
• Website: una-unso.in.ua.
• Main ideas: ethnic ultranationalism, racism, antisemitism, militarism.

УНА-УНСО
Yuriy Shukevych

The party’s founder Yuriy Shukhevych is a son of Roman Shukhevych, a leader of the notorious Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (formed in 1943). Once a strong paramilitary organisation, which participated in the armed conflicts on post-Soviet territories, the activities of the UNA-UNSO are now confined to street protests. The party withdrew from electoral politics in 2007.
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frogwoman said:
Its not always as simple as that

Shortly before I came to Moldova there were protests against the (pro-russian) Communist party government by opposition groups, many of whom were far right and a lot who were pro European liberals.

There were reasons why people supported the protests - a lot of people supported them who weren't far right or nationalist at all. The communist party in Moldova was extremely corrupt and basically didn't have anything communist about it at all apart from being a pro ethnic Russian party. There was a huge amount of poverty and corruption and many people thought being part of the EU would help prevent this. The far left there is practically non existent, tbh (not that it would necessarily make any difference if it wasn't)

I think what also happens is that support for particular stances for some people anyway ends up going along ethnic lines, so opposition to the EU would end up being seen as 'communist' and pro Russian..
Click to expand...

I imagine something similar is happening in Ukraine. Not all the protesters are fascists by a long shot, though the far-right are obviously a much bigger part of it now.
 
goldenecitrone said:
I imagine something similar is happening in Ukraine. Not all the protesters are fascists by a long shot, though the far-right are obviously a much bigger part of it now.
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The problem I see though is that even if the majority of protesters are not fascist, it's the fascists who are most organised. It's that organisation alongside their ruthlessness that is surely the decisive factor in who comes out on top in any 'spontaneous' revolt.
 
AFP reporting that the Justice Ministry in Kiev has been seized:

Kiev (AFP) - Dozens of Ukrainian protesters on Sunday seized the justice ministry in Kiev, smashing its windows, an AFP correspondent reported.

The protesters appeared to have encountered no resistance and already begun erecting barricades outside the building with rubbish containers.
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goldenecitrone said:
I imagine something similar is happening in Ukraine. Not all the protesters are fascists by a long shot, though the far-right are obviously a much bigger part of it now.
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you were imagining they werent fascists at all a few pages back and ridiculing the notion of it until your face was rubbed in it. Now its just a few of them Stop cheerleading these fucks you nazi loving maggot.
 
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