Ukraine

[classicdish]

Otherwise you might be shot by valiant marksmen Mrs.Ashton sent to help Maidan opposition. Listen yourself if you don't believe...

The relevant bit is at around 8 minutes onwards. Noone on that tape said anything about marksmen being sent from outside Ukraine at all. The Estonian guy was simply passing on a claim/rumour made by someone else - there isn't any evidence of anything, just more of the same kind of speculation that had other people claiming they were russian special forces snipers or whatever.

 

[butchersapron]

another widely spun lie by western media

Yeah? Where?

 

[laptop]

another widely spun lie by western media

You've spoken with him today?

 

[classicdish]

another widely spun lie by western media

It wasn't widely reported let alone 'spun', unless being ignored is being spun.

 

[butchersapron]

This is a better piece - not perfect of course, but look at the links not the funding - about the russian media and rt in particular - and throws some light on the 'middle aged woman' stuff linked to above that i didn't get.

 

[J Ed]

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/world.php?yyyy=2014&mm=03&dd=05&nav_id=89530

Interesting. . .

E2A: RT is claiming that a hacked phone call between Ashton and the Estonian foreign minister has them discussing a credible claim that the snipers who fired on people at the Maidan were hired by the anti-Yanukovich camp.

Which is "interesting. . ." but also problematic, GIVEN THAT IT'S A CLAIM COMING FROM RT.

Here is the tape



Doesn't seem not credible, it's not as if the Estonians have any interest in promoting a case for Russia. Voice of Russia claims that the Estonian FM is confirming the authenticity.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

The relevant bit is at around 8 minutes onwards. Noone on that tape said anything about marksmen being sent from outside Ukraine at all. The Estonian guy was simply passing on a claim/rumour made by someone else - there isn't any evidence of anything, just more of the same kind of speculation that had other people claiming they were russian special forces snipers or whatever.

He makes no claim that the snipers came from outside, but he does hint that the evidence points back to either a faction in the Maiden protests, or a faction paid for by the government, which he seems to have come to the conclusion through their refusal to investigate the crime.
He says "all the evidence shows" I'm assuming this is the evidence so far gathered by British forensic investigators, who were sent to the Ukraine last week to investigate the crime scene. Even though he is technically passing on a "claim/rumour" as it's not been proven in a court of law, he is still talking in the context of evidence discovered through the forensic investigation, which provide evidence to prove that the bullets came from the same gun and I'm assuming don't match police issued weapons.

 

[butchersapron]

He doesn't say the evidence shows anything at all does he? He says someone else - an olga, not british forensics investigators - say that all the evidence shows that. We have no idea who this person is - maybe Olga Bogomolets?. He doesn't endorse or agree with the claim but he claims that it's a rumour that's gathering public support and that it may at a later date pose a problem for the new govt's credibility.

Yes is is OB and she denies saying what the estonian bloke says that she said to him.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

This is a better piece - not perfect of course, but look at the links not the funding - about the russian media and rt in particular - and throws some light on the 'middle aged woman' stuff linked to above that i didn't get.

I wouldn't trust Radio Liberty for reporting on the disinformation, from experience they tend to be worse than RT for disinformation. Radio Liberty may not no longer be CIA funded, but all US media under the US Board of Governance, is tasked with promoting US interests overseas and routinely get accused by foreign governments of disinformation.

 

[kebabking]

One word for the historically aware: WarmWaterPort.

If for some reason Russia lost Sevastopol, and since it's effectively lost Tartus in Syria, on historical precedent it'd be smartish negotiating a basing deal with Iran.

Which would get interesting...

the Russian Navy seems to be settling in rather well in Cyprus - they have paid short visits to Paphos military airfield, a Russian Navy surface action group stopped off at Limassol port, and theres a lovely picture online of the Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov sailing past - within swimming distance - of RAF Akrotiri, which was absolutely not playing host to some USAF U-2's at the time...

i doubt the Russians are that keen on an Iranian solution - its quite high risk, though it would place Iran very firmly in their debt as Russian base appears to mean no US military action... buying off the Cypriots might be easier.

 

[butchersapron]

I wouldn't trust Radio Liberty for reporting on the disinformation, from experience they tend to be worse than RT for disinformation. Radio Liberty may not no longer be CIA funded, but all US media under the US Board of Governance, is tasked with promoting US interests overseas and routinely get accused by foreign governments of disinformation.

I don' trust it anymore than RT - that's why i said have a look at the links they're trying to use, let's use out own loafs - they tell us anything?

 

[Casually Red]

View attachment 49356

Im calling shenanigans on that pic. That was definitely taken by an aircraft. Theres no way anything other than Russian aircraft would be buzzing over a Russian armoured column . Thats a Russian photo from its exercises in Russia, not tanks piling into Ukraine .

 

[RosyFuture]

1611 GMT David Marples now on the radio:
kpfk.org

Added: noticed he didn't sign that academic/NGO plea 'in support of Euromaidan, don't exaggerate the far right control of things' - Snyder was signatory.

 

[Casually Red]

Are media reports of Russian troops, tanks, aircraft and helicopters in Crimea incorrect?

the aerial pic of the tanks rolling in is definitely a fake. And Russia is permitted to have 25000 troops in crimea along with all their vehicles, ships and helicopters

 

[camouflage]

Im calling shenanigans on that pic. That was definitely taken by an aircraft. Theres no way anything other than Russian aircraft would be buzzing over a Russian armoured column . Thats a Russian photo from its exercises in Russia, not tanks piling into Ukraine .

Someone posted a foto of Russian tanks that CNN claimed to have been travelling in Crimea. In actual fact they were tanks on excesize deep inside Russia.

 

[classicdish]

...He says "all the evidence shows"...

[edit: sorry just seen that butchersapron has already got there before me]

He is just repeating what someone said to him:

8min 20sec

Paet: "...and second what was quite disturbing the same Olga told as well that all the evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers, from both sides among policemen and people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides..."

Ashton: "...well that, yeah, that..."

Paet: "...then she also showed me some photos that she said that as medical doctor she could say was the same handwriting, same type of bullets, and its really disturbing that the new coalition, that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened so there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers that it was not Yanokovych but it was somebody from the new coalition..."

Ashton: "...but I think they do want to investigate..."

Is it worth pointing out that having the same kind of bullet wounds doesn't really prove much either way? Lack of evidence is also not proof of a cover up, unless you a into conspiracy-theory type reasoning.

 

[Casually Red]

He makes no claim that the snipers came from outside, but he does hint that the evidence points back to either a faction in the Maiden protests, or a faction paid for by the government, which he seems to have come to the conclusion through their refusal to investigate the crime.
He says "all the evidence shows" I'm assuming this is the evidence so far gathered by British forensic investigators, who were sent to the Ukraine last week to investigate the crime scene. Even though he is technically passing on a "claim/rumour" as it's not been proven in a court of law, he is still talking in the context of evidence discovered through the forensic investigation, which provide evidence to prove that the bullets came from the same gun and I'm assuming don't match police issued weapons.

its precisely what was done in Venezuela during that other western backed coup .

 

[Casually Red]

Someone posted a foto of Russian tanks that CNN claimed to have been travelling in Crimea. In actual fact they were tanks on excesize deep inside Russia.

so more western media fakery

 

[butchersapron]

Someone posted a foto of Russian tanks that CNN claimed to have been travelling in Crimea. In actual fact they were tanks on excesize deep inside Russia.

Link?

 

[butchersapron]

so more western media fakery

Note, he doesn't ask for evidence.

 

[Casually Red]

Christ. The Usual Suspects with typical hubris blunder into another nations politics and cause a big mess, and what do our resident Leftists do? Pile predictably in as if it's all a devious scheme by Russia to conquer more territory. Yes, who knows what crazy Putin will do next, surely the tanks are headed to Warsaw as we speak.

Kerry, McCain and Apron all agree that Russia and Furher Putin are the problem. There simply is no such thing as a Western Block Dissident.

dyed in the wool fifth columnists, and consistently so .

 

[butchersapron]

Oh fan-fucking-tastic

 

[camouflage]

its precisely what was done in Venezuela during that other western backed coup .

A lot of reports of this sort of thing in the early days of Syrias uprising, when it was still political (blond snipers etc). It's difficult to discuss seriously, these mystery-sniper allegations.Proper evidence would be nice, don't want to risk being called a *drum roll* Conspiraloon! Madly suggesting like a box of frogs that governments might do unpleasant and illegal things sometimes to each other. Why, that would be crazy tawk.

 

[Casually Red]

It was just a quip about Fox's objectivity - wasn't meant to be a substantive point. Though whenever there is a military crisis a casual observer could be forgiven for thinking Fox was a state broadcaster.

well the Abby Martin non sacking is uniquely different to the policies of Fox News, BBC, CNN

 

[camouflage]

Link?

No link as I watched it on..... (oh, you won't like this) RT.

 

[Casually Red]

A lot of reports of this sort of thing in the early days of Syrias uprising, when it was still political (blond snipers etc). It's difficult to discuss seriously, these mystery-sniper allegations.Proper evidence would be nice, don't want to risk being called a *drum roll* Conspiraloon! Madly suggesting like a box of frogs that governments might do unpleasant and illegal things sometimes to each other. Why, that would be crazy tawk.

Could be an idea to ask that IDF guy who took his squad offside sharpish when the shooting started and left his absolutely non anti semitic , honest guv, neo nazi <brothers> to their fate at such a crucial moment. Afterall with his military experience he should be able to have a fair idea of where the sniper was firing from.
As yet weve no other evidence of foreign military forces in the vicinity playing a role in the coup.

 

[butchersapron]

No link as I watched it on..... (oh, you won't like this) RT.

I don't really have to do anything here do i? Between the space cowboy and the bloke with the whiff of the Baathist cellar.

 

[brogdale]

the aerial pic of the tanks rolling in is definitely a fake. And Russia is permitted to have 25000 troops in crimea along with all their vehicles, ships and helicopters

I accept that they're not, technically, tanks...but rather mobile artillery...but what evidence have you for the fake nature of the image? Do you have a link?

 

[butchersapron]

well the Abby Martin non sacking is uniquely different to the policies of Fox News, BBC, CNN

What an odd thing to say.

 

[Casually Red]

Brilliant...Putin has just been nominated for the Nobel Peace prize

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-nobel-peace-idUSBREA231R920140304