Ukraine

[taffboy gwyrdd]

there was a debate about the validity of the case for invasion which as you may recall included sessions of the security council and a debate in parliament. how was it framed? it wasn't "framed", it took place in a wide range of different arenas.

go on then, list these invasions in central america.


i spoke to an actual point and provided an example of it. you by contrast seem inclined to engage in bluster you cannot substantiate (e.g. countless invasions becomes support for dubious stuff in central america). if you wish to appear as something of a twat by asserting things which are not in fact true then go on. but it's me warning you you'll appear as such rather than me saying you are a twat.

So, the BBC would say "we will be looking to see if the case for invasion has any validity at all" would it? Would it bollocks. You are more concerned with catching me out than anything approaching truth. It's dismal, and you aint doing very well at it either.

As for "invasions", thankfully I didn't mention any. I was thinking of the destabalising of Venezuala in particular. But the US as biggest sponsor of terror and tyranny since WW2 might come under scrutiny, never of the degree of "does their case have any validity at all?"

 

[co-op]

Er, don't you recall the Russian race to the airport followed closely by western forces, to make it secure in their eyes? that could have turned nasty.

Yes, I remember it well and I think there's a good case for saying that the British and French arranged for the Russians to be there maybe without remembering to tell the yanks. The partitioning of Kosovo into the various occupied zones for the US, UK and France and with the Russians having the airport allowed the Russians to be involved and know what was going on - literally who was flying in and out - without really letting them make much difference to outcomes. Quite elegant, as military diplomacy goes.

 

[co-op]

This has now been vetoed.

Yep - and it should be unconstitutional although I'm not sure that the constitution really means much after a coup. It was more the message it sends at this time that I was referring to. Basically 'screw the russkis'.

 

[butchersapron]

So, the BBC would say "we will be looking to see if the case for invasion has any validity at all" would it? Would it bollocks. You are more concerned with catching me out than anything approaching truth. It's dismal, and you aint doing very well at it either.

There were loads and loads of debates at the time whe this position was put - radio and tv. And there were many news items doing the same - laying out the points for invasion and interrogating them. This really happened.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep - and it should be unconstitutional although I'm not sure that the constitution really means much after a coup. It was more the message it sends at this time that I was referring to. Basically 'screw the russkis'.

That was quite good politics i think - the immediate vote tied the far-right to the parliament (the old electoral opposition) and also allowed them (the latter) some room to later be seen as offering compromise with the russian speaking areas.

 

[co-op]

There were loads and loads of debates at the time whe this position was put - radio and tv. And there were many news items doing the same - laying out the points for invasion and interrogating them. This really happened.

Yes - I hate to say it but there was an episode of QT with some pretty heavyweight punters on which left me impressed by the openness of the debate. It sure sounded like the real thing, even if the outcome of the debate was not in much doubt (to me). With hindsight and the Syria decision, it maybe that a 'genuine' public debate was a public signal of the UK's loosening allegiance to US foreign policy. It coincided (roughly) with a sudden rush by the UK into the arms of the French with lots of joint naval planning etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

So, the BBC would say "we will be looking to see if the case for invasion has any validity at all" would it? Would it bollocks. You are more concerned with catching me out than anything approaching truth. It's dismal, and you aint doing very well at it either.

As for "invasions", thankfully I didn't mention any. I was thinking of the destabalising of Venezuala in particular. But the US as biggest sponsor of terror and tyranny since WW2 might come under scrutiny, never of the degree of "does their case have any validity at all?"

so the invasions of grenada, of panama, of santo domingo, and the attempted invasion of cuba passed you by

 

[co-op]

That was quite good politics i think - the immediate vote tied the far-right to the parliament (the old electoral opposition) and also allowed them (the latter) some room to later be seen as offering compromise with the russian speaking areas.

Good reading - the veto certainly sends another signal of course.

 

[Pickman's model]

taffboy gwyrdd did you miss the great debate worldwide about us involvement in vietnam or somalia or the balkans or ... you're talking shit, these debates happen elsewhere irl as they do here.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Pickmans. I wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse. Of course none of those invasions, interventions etc. passed me by.

Of course they were debated, but how many times do you think the BBC would have put it like this "we will be examining the US case to see if it has any validity at all?"

It's a question of emphasis, as propaganda so often is, and a point I've made 3 times now (I think).

Each post of yours has included personal attack and ignored a key point.

Urban really is not at it's best when indulging one-upship ahead of objective discussion.

 

[laptop]

these debates happen elsewhere irl as they do here.

No they don't. Anything that TG can't remember right now has clearly been suppressed by Them.

 

[co-op]

Pickmans. I wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse.

It could be accidental, this is where he gets his mileage. It might be classy trolling.

 

[SovietArmy]

Bla bla media Janukovic died last night he had hard attack

 

[goldenecitrone]

Weird Al Yankovych dead. Don't know about Viktor Yanukovych though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so the invasions of grenada, of panama, of santo domingo, and the attempted invasion of cuba passed you by

He was probably still jobbying in his pampers when Grenada went off.

 

[Casually Red]

It is entriely consistent for him to act without consulting but then to ameliorate his position after pressure from the rich and powerful
Equally, given the near unanimous vote in the Duma, he may already have laid out plans that are acceptable to them but not yet revealed to the world
Either way they will have some influence
Having moved huge amounts of cash out of Russia the last thing they want is to have their assets in the West frozen

i think it more likely the city of london are the last people who want those assets frozen, and the supply of Russian money to disappear for good . Thats probably...certainly...why that embarassingly photographed document outlining Britains response had absolutely fucking no fucking asset freezes are you insane as point number one .

the bluffs been called

 

[hipipol]

i think it more likely the city of london are the last people who want those assets frozen, and the supply of Russian money to disappear for good . Thats probably...certainly...why that embarassingly photographed document outlining Britains response had absolutely fucking no fucking asset freezes are you insane as point number one .

the bluffs been called

IF the russian troops start shooting expect that feeble waft of "we wont let your kids play ours" Hague threat to toughen up a bit
We didn't notice it much here but when Cypriot banks gave ALL savers a massive heaircut the Russian "Biznizmen" went bonkers
Putin will prob hope to get the territory and a weakened - I suspect he hopes also for a chastened - Ukraine by proxy and street clamour rather than letting the tanks roll
This aint another Georgia he can just slap down with blatant military might

 

[classicdish]

...Thats probably...certainly...why that embarassingly photographed document outlining Britains response had absolutely fucking no fucking asset freezes are you insane as point number one...

It said "for now".

Do you think an asset freeze would be a good idea? Would it cause more pain for Putin or the UK? Would it achieve anything useful at the moment?

 

[Teaboy]

i think it more likely the city of london are the last people who want those assets frozen, and the supply of Russian money to disappear for good . Thats probably...certainly...why that embarassingly photographed document outlining Britains response had absolutely fucking no fucking asset freezes are you insane as point number one .

the bluffs been called

Whilst it is classic civil service incompetence its hardly a surprising information really is it? There will be all the usual bluster coming out of the various western government but behind the scenes it will be the money men calling the shots and they will be talking to the Russian money men and agreeing that this can't escalate too far. As ever follow the money..................

 

[Casually Red]

Of course its status has been tossed back and forward according to who is in power and anyway its status is supposedly constitutionally guaranteed (even when not an official state language) - I just meant that a new Kiev govt that had less nazis in it might have been a bit thoughtful about the symbolism of trying to repeal this kind of law right now. Being cycnical, if I was a Ukrainian nationalist, I'd say do it later when there's no Russia-invasion option. It's almost like they want to provoke a fight (or elements there do).

I think its overemphasising the nazis importance to blame them for that move . The moderates in the coup took to the streets themselves acting pretty furious when the languages act was originally passed . They were beating up other mps in the parliament and calling them traitors over it 2 years ago .

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/may/25/ukraine-parliament-brawl-language-bill-video

 

[Idris2002]

Now Ukraine's new govt are pleading for help from NATO - including help securing the nuclear sites.

http://www.sptimes.ru/index_bp.php?action_id=2&story_id=39258&section=12

 

[Teaboy]

Now Ukraine's new govt are pleading for help from NATO - including help securing the nuclear sites.

http://www.sptimes.ru/index_bp.php?action_id=2&story_id=39258&section=12

Securing from whom? I'd sleep safer at night knowing they were in the hands of the Russian army rather then the lot from Kiev at the moment.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

John Kerry's speech is overloading my bullshit detector right now.

 

[butchersapron]

I think its overemphasising the nazis importance to blame them for that move . The moderates in the coup took to the streets themselves acting pretty furious when the languages act was originally passed . They were beating up other mps in the parliament and calling them traitors over it 2 years ago .

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/may/25/ukraine-parliament-brawl-language-bill-video

Link to the moderates in the street please.

 

[Casually Red]

IF the russian troops start shooting expect that feeble waft of "we wont let your kids play ours" Hague threat to toughen up a bit
We didn't notice it much here but when Cypriot banks gave ALL savers a massive heaircut the Russian "Biznizmen" went bonkers
Putin will prob hope to get the territory and a weakened - I suspect he hopes also for a chastened - Ukraine by proxy and street clamour rather than letting the tanks roll
This aint another Georgia he can just slap down with blatant military might

he never laid a finger on the georgians until their tie munching madman of a leader rolled up out of the blue one morning with tanks and armoured columns , machinegunned russian peacekeeping troops and let loose a massive rocket bombardment on the south ossetian capital. If the western Ukranians pulled a stunt like that on crimea its a certainty theyd be slapped down. Certainly with more difficulty than the Georgians but theyd face quite serious and ruinous retribution.

The Western powers hope to get Ukraine . That will most certainly require the physical and political suppression of vast swathes of its non compliant population by those forces the western powers sponsor. Who have just taken power by force while being openly cheered on by the west.

 

[phildwyer]

so the invasions of grenada, of panama, of santo domingo, and the attempted invasion of cuba passed you by

There was no invasion of "Santo Domingo."

 

[Casually Red]

Securing from whom? I'd sleep safer at night knowing they were in the hands of the Russian army rather then the lot from Kiev at the moment.

the fascist guy whos now in some government ministry, Yarosh, was openly calling on his website a few days ago for the chechen jihadist leader Doku Umarov to come and help them . Reminding the chechen jihadists that Ukrainian fascists were comrades in arms with them .

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/

just the type of guys you want running about nuclear reactors with cunts like that in charge of national security

And just watching that video of his nazi speech with Kerry proclaiming tto the world theres no threat to the coups opponents, no intimidation...fuck off kerry

 

[Casually Red]

Yep - and it should be unconstitutional although I'm not sure that the constitution really means much after a coup. It was more the message it sends at this time that I was referring to. Basically 'screw the russkis'.

the much belated veto is a joke. Its purely a result of their western backers being furious with them for showing their hand immediately. And its still not an end to it either. The language bill is still being repealed. The coup leader is just saying theres going to be another language bill later to replace this one as opposed to that one just being thrown out .
we can expect that one will be squelching russian in the small print, after loads of flowery multicultural EU freindly aspirational stuff in the preamble . Opposing the russian languages use in public life has long been a platform for most of the opposition . Their platform hasnt changed in the slightest, and wont .

and anyways the regions its been directed at have pretty much told Kiev to take a hike.

 

[butchersapron]

the fascist guy whos now in some government ministry, Yarosh, was openly calling on his website a few days ago for the chechen jihadist leader Doku Umarov to come and help them . Reminding the chechen jihadists that Ukrainian fascists were comrades in arms with them .

http://rt.com/news/yarosh-nationalist-address-umarov-380/

just the type of guys you want running about nuclear reactors with cunts like that in charge of national security

And just watching that video of his speech with Kerry proclaiming tto the world theres no threat to the coups opponents, no intimidation...fuck off kerry

Read your own link mouthpiece.

 

[Mikey77]

There was no invasion of "Santo Domingo."

And Nicaragua.