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Ukraine

Casually Red said:
and expressing his support for Venezuelan fascists as well as Ukranian fascists right from the off
hurrah for the liberals
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I cannot believe that serious newspapers run articles from this sort of thief and other convicted parasites and yet they do. There must be thousands of far better qualified and more articulate postgrad students in Britain capable of giving an actual analysis of what is happening in Ukraine, but no - we get Chris Huhne.
 
Casually Red said:
well Nulands leaked phone call made very clear what was going on
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But that just informed us what the Americans were trying to do. The fact that it was leaked by the Russians says more, but neither facts tell us anything about what the EU thought. That is if the EU even had a collective policy on Ukraine.
 
Casually Red said:
As for why Russians would do it the only possible excuse that can be offered is because Russians hate Ukranians and just wanted to shoot some.
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I think when they talk about Russian's their talking about the Cossacks, or Eastern Ukranian's, their was video I found earlier today of Eastern Ukrainian Berkut returning home from Kiev. It's only obvious that the president would put people who strongly identify with Russia, from the East into the Berkut as it's the main paramilitary in the country, mainly used for doing the presidential dirty work.

As for the snipers when they were making that last push to parliament the snipers were randomly shooting at people, as seen in this video:



But that's kind of understandable being the obvious that once they had taken over the government building, they could hold the government and country to ransom. However, after watching some of these groups training video's on Youtube and having looked at protest footage, being so well trained, I get the impression these guys are involved in more militant actions behind the scenes, e.g the hipster kids are doing the running in front of snipers, while these guys have sniper positions of their own.
 
Eastern-Odyssey said:
Independent member of parliament Alexander Doby got sent to the hospital for concussion after being beaten up by two Svobota members, in the toilet of all places. Apparently they were not happy how he was voting. One of the assailants syrotiuk yuri, is an interesting fellow, apparently he didn't like Ukraine's 2012 Eurovision Song entry, it turns out Svobota not only hate Jews and Russian's, but also Ukrainian Congolese.
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His parliamentary colleague Igor Miroshnichenko caused a bit of a stir a while back after he labelled the Ukranian born and visually lovely Mila Kunis as a dirty jewess and not a true Ukrainian at all on account of that . That was all in the papers at the time, quite a bit of outrage expressed . But a lot of the journos seem to have forgotten that when theyre selling this democracy protestor line to us today.

And Svobota are actually a bit milder than the Right Sector who are standing outside with thousands of looted guns.
 
Casually Red said:
I posted a link earlier in thread to the Ukranian Galician SS division ..or the 14th Grenadier Division Waffen SS to give them their full title ...who were given refuge in Britian post war on the grounds of their fervent anti communism . There were about 8000 names included in the Rimini list which the British government still keeps a closely guarded secret .Their specialty was anti partisan actions ie slaughtering the civilian populations of districts were partisans were active . Particularly in Ukraine, Poland, Yugoslavia and Slovakia.

Heres part one of an interesting doco on them and how Britian has sheltered them . And helped them evade prosecution ever since. Which leads me to form the opinion the powers that be long regarded them and their contacts back home as a strategic asset of sorts.



those muppets with the flags in Leeds could well be their own offspring .
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There was a lot of it about back then. The yanks recruited a whole bunch of those fuckers as CIA paramilitaries and into the units that became US Special Forces. See the 'Project Bloodstone' chapter and the 3 following ones in this excerpted history.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Blowback_CSimpson.html
 
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J Ed said:
I cannot believe that serious newspapers run articles from this sort of thief and other convicted parasites and yet they do. There must be thousands of far better qualified and more articulate postgrad students in Britain capable of giving an actual analysis of what is happening in Ukraine, but no - we get Chris Huhne.
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I think maybe its time to start taking the view that newspapers repeatedly taking the piss in such an obvious and prolonged fashion simply arent serious newspapers. Merely purveyors of lies and confusion with their own agendas when it comes to certain issues that happily coincide with state agendas. Regardless of whether theyre from the nominal left or right .
 
Casually Red said:
I posted a link earlier in thread to the Ukranian Galician SS division ..or the 14th Grenadier Division Waffen SS to give them their full title ...who were given refuge in Britian post war on the grounds of their fervent anti communism . There were about 8000 names included in the Rimini list which the British government still keeps a closely guarded secret .Their specialty was anti partisan actions ie slaughtering the civilian populations of districts were partisans were active . Particularly in Ukraine, Poland, Yugoslavia and Slovakia.

Heres part one of an interesting doco on them and how Britian has sheltered them . And helped them evade prosecution ever since. Which leads me to form the opinion the powers that be long regarded them and their contacts back home as a strategic asset of sorts.



those muppets with the flags in Leeds could well be their own offspring .
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Interesting doc. Thanks.
 
Casually Red said:
I think maybe its time to start taking the view that newspapers repeatedly taking the piss in such an obvious and prolonged fashion simply arent serious newspapers. Merely purveyors of lies and confusion with their own agendas when it comes to certain issues that happily coincide with state agendas. Regardless of whether theyre from the nominal left or right .
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Hume in writing that article in the Guardian, not for the Guardian - he is a guest writer not a staffer, is I suspect really just thinking of his own future. All that glowing praise of the wonderful EU sounds to me like the utterings of a man who wants a job after the next election. He is poison to the LibDems if he is in their Parliamentary Party but he could earn a good living as an MEP or even have a job with the EU commission. As for the Ukraine he has obviously just been reading the papers we all criticise.
 
Hocus Eye. said:
But that just informed us what the Americans were trying to do. The fact that it was leaked by the Russians says more, but neither facts tell us anything about what the EU thought. That is if the EU even had a collective policy on Ukraine.
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I think its clear the EU had a policy of getting rid of the Ukranian president and replacing him with their particular selection of faces . Its just they differed on who their choice was for the next governemnt . The German funded and directed Klitshcko wasnt deemed suitable enough a player by the US who decided he wouldnt be in it . Unlike the EU reps who plainly did want him in it . Having invested many millions of Euro in him . The yanks had lined their choice up and decided to pip the EUs selection for the puppet government at the post . Hence Fuck the EU
Both EU and USA required the governments overthrow , and were aiming at that by backing the rioters. The EU were also aiming at that with the pressure it was putting on Yanukovich to accept their EU deal or else .
Only Eu aligned government pressure could be responsible for what numerous people are on here referring to as serious newspapers and media outlets relentlessly hammering away with the line that armed fascist rioters are pro democracy demonstrators. When the obvious rebuttal to that is staring everyone in the face .
 
Hocus Eye. said:
Hume in writing that article in the Guardian, not for the Guardian - he is a guest writer not a staffer, is I suspect really just thinking of his own future. All that glowing praise of the wonderful EU sounds to me like the utterings of a man who wants a job after the next election. He is poison to the LibDems if he is in their Parliamentary Party but he could earn a good living as an MEP or even have a job with the EU commission. As for the Ukraine he has obviously just been reading the papers we all criticise.
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The Guardian chose to give him a platform for his rubbish . Which is remarkably similar to the rubbish many of their their own staffers have been writing about Ukraine, with a few exceptions . Huhne is a sleazy politician for hire . Of course hes just thinking about his own future . And the only forum for that after his scandal is within the EU beaureacracy as a well paid faceless nonentity . If that fails its Im a celebrity or Big Brother..the Hamilton route. Therefore hes banging the EU drum as loud as possible . With the Guardians assitance naturally . Theyve their own interest in affording a washed up non Ukranian a public forum to bleat about Ukraine . And Venezuela .
 
Mustn't grumble your statements about Israel etc have got nothing to do with what we are talking about unless you have proof that Israel are actually doing that. This is a thread about Ukraine, if you want to start a thread on Zionism etc then by all means do so.

Also I do find it a bit annoying that there's always someone who immediately starts up about Israel and Palestine whenever antisemitism or Nazis, etc, is discussed, nothing wrong with talking about it, nothing wrong with talking about how Israeli actions have contributed to the support of those groups and how the state use it to encourage support for their policies among Jews/as a sop to right wing elements etc in Israel, but in this case it is not relevant to the topic at hand, there's no evidence that Israel are involved in any significant way. And going on about 'Judaic' etc is a bit weird. Like I said if you've got evidence that Israel has been involved by all means say so but I've yet to see any.

I didn't come straight out with it because I didn't want you to take it the wrong way but it's just a bit irritating when people immediately start up about this whenever this sort of subject is discussed.
 
frogwoman said:
Yep. It was given to Ukraine as a gift.
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After Stalin had starved, murdered and finally deported the entire indigenous Tartar population

Ethnic groups[edit]
According to 2001 Ukrainian Census, the population of Crimea was 2,033,700.[47] The ethnic makeup was comprised the following self-reported groups: Russians: 58.32%; Ukrainians: 24.32%; Crimean Tatars: 12.1%; Belarusians: 1.44%; Tatars: 0.54%; Armenians: 0.43%; Jews: 0.22%, Greeks: 0.15% and others.[48]
Ethnic
group1897 census1939 census1959 census1979 census1989 census2001 census
Number %Number %Number %Number %Number %Number %
Russians180,96333.11% 49.6% 71.4% 68.4% 67.1%1,180,44158.32%
Ukrainians64,70311.84% 13.7% 22.3% 25.6% 25.8%492,22724.32%
Crimean Tatars194,29435.55% 19.4% 0% 0.7% 1.6%243,43312.03%
Others
Other minorities are Black Sea Germans, Romani people, Bulgarians, Poles, Azerbaijanis, Koreans, Greeks and Italians. The number of Crimea Germans was 45,000 in 1941.[49] In 1944, 70,000 Greeks and 14,000 Bulgarians from the Crimea were deported to Central Asia and Siberia,[50] along with 200,000 Crimean Tatars and other nationalities.[51]
Ukrainian is the single official state language countrywide, and is the sole language of government in Ukraine. According to the census mentioned, 77% of Crimean inhabitants named Russian as their native language; 11.4% – Crimean Tatar; and 10.1% – Ukrainian.[52] In Crimea government business is carried out mainly in Russian. Attempts to expand the usage of Ukrainian in education and government affairs have been less successful in Crimea than in other areas of the nation.[53]
Currently two thirds of the migrants into Crimea are from other regions of Ukraine; every 5th migrant is from the former Soviet Union and every 40th from outside of it. Three quarters of those leaving Crimea move to other areas in Ukraine. Every 20th migrates to the West.[52]
The number of Crimean residents who consider Ukraine their motherland increased sharply from 32% to 71.3% from 2008 through 2011; according to a poll by Razumkov Center in March 2011,[54] although this is the lowest number in all Ukraine (93% on average across the country).[54] Surveys of regional identities in Ukraine have shown that around 30% of Crimean residents claim to have retained a self-identified "Soviet identity".[55]
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From Wikipedia
 
Casually Red said:
remember people were shooting police dead in the square too, and had been assassinating them and judges in the weeks prior to the Meidan killings as well. In such a situation police marksmen being stationed in the square where armed men were shooting police dead is no big surprise. It doesnt mean for a second they were the only snipers in the area.

The fascists have had one tactic throughout this series of events. And its been escalate, escalate escalate . Regardless of what agreements the opposition and government arrived at . The very next day the fash would escalate even further . And kept doing so, always ramping it up another notch . To the point they started killing police and judges outside the square, and then inside it . Police snipers may well have killed some of those people but it doesnt mean they killed them all .

The one thing Yanukovich was trying to avoid was dead protestors . We saw time and time again Berkut just standing there getting the shite knocked clean out of them not hitting back . For weeks on end . And now they just randomly massacre people ? Doesnt make sense . Does make sense if you want the government overthrown though . And we saw that in Venezuela with CIA agents , snipers, massacring the right wingers and chavistas alike at the moment of highest tension and escalation as both sides faced off against each other .

Im not saying thats whats happened here too but theres good reason to assume it entirely possible, because its a known tactic thats been exposed elsewhere . And the very same players are definitely in town playing for far bigger stakes than Venezuela .

As for why Russians would do it the only possible excuse that can be offered is because Russians hate Ukranians and just wanted to shoot some . Which is jsut the usual ethnic shibboleths that pass as currency in that neck of the world . We heard even worse rumours when that Polish idiots plane crashed.
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If you look at this video:



At 17 seconds the tree looks to get hit from the same direction that the protesters are travelling. That'll be their own snipers then?
 
J Ed said:
I cannot believe that serious newspapers run articles from this sort of thief and other convicted parasites and yet they do. There must be thousands of far better qualified and more articulate postgrad students in Britain capable of giving an actual analysis of what is happening in Ukraine, but no - we get Chris Huhne.
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Well, at least it's not Sleazy Den

mac-guilty.png


Who, as well as now being shacked up with the former Mrs Hune, has spent years popping up on TV as a Euro-expert.

I forgot when posting the above that Denis is still in jail so presumably unable to take Guardian commissions.

Here's one he wrote for them earlier
 
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tim said:
Well, at least it's not Sleazy Den

mac-guilty.png


Who, as well as now being shacked up with the former Mrs Hune, has spent years popping up on TV as a Euro-expert.

I forgot when posting the above that Denis is still in jail so presumably unable to take Guardian commissions.

Here's one he wrote for them earlier
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He only did six week of his 6 months sentence.
 
Oisin123 said:
http://roarmag.org/2014/02/euromaidan-protests-ukraine-contradictions/

This is the best analysis I've read on the social nature of EuroMaidan. Apologies if someone has already posted it earlier.
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Those people are new to politics, they just “know” they are rightists and nationalists. And therefore they trust the more politically experienced leaders to express their views and formulate their programme for them. It just so happens that those leaders are nationalists or even Nazis. And they shift the centre of the political discourse even further to the right.

This is the political portrait of the middle-class majority of the Maidan. That’s what happens when you don’t have developed left movement and your liberals are too corrupt and ugly!
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source above

Interesting perspective ...
 
Casually Red said:
I think maybe its time to start taking the view that newspapers repeatedly taking the piss in such an obvious and prolonged fashion simply arent serious newspapers. Merely purveyors of lies and confusion with their own agendas when it comes to certain issues that happily coincide with state agendas. Regardless of whether theyre from the nominal left or right .
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When Yanukovych fled, I tuned in to see how the 3 major American broadcast networks were covering it. It was identical. 'The people have won a great victory over the brutal, corrupt government and now have hope for the future since they can now break free of Russia and side with Europe & the US'. Most emphasis was placed on Yanukovych's lavish lifestyle. Not a word about any neo-Nazi involvement. Reminded me of their coverage leading up to the Iraq invasion....cheer leading all the way.

If I hadn't been following this thread, I would have had no idea what was going on in Ukraine.
 
TomUS said:
When Yanukovych fled, I tuned in to see how the 3 major American broadcast networks were covering it. It was identical. 'The people have won a great victory over the brutal, corrupt government and now have hope for the future since they can now break free of Russia and side with Europe & the US'. Most emphasis was placed on Yanukovych's lavish lifestyle. Not a word about any neo-Nazi involvement. Reminded me of their coverage leading up to the Iraq invasion....cheer leading all the way.

If I hadn't been following this thread, I would have had no idea what was going on in Ukraine.
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Interesting to read how CNN describes the players:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/22/world/europe/ukraine-profiles/

The fascist aspect is totally downplayed.
 
TomUS said:
When Yanukovych fled, I tuned in to see how the 3 major American broadcast networks were covering it. It was identical. 'The people have won a great victory over the brutal, corrupt government and now have hope for the future since they can now break free of Russia and side with Europe & the US'. Most emphasis was placed on Yanukovych's lavish lifestyle. Not a word about any neo-Nazi involvement. Reminded me of their coverage leading up to the Iraq invasion....cheer leading all the way.

If I hadn't been following this thread, I would have had no idea what was going on in Ukraine.
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theres not a mention either of the lavish lifestyles of the opposition leaders , as if theyre living in some little Borat style shack or grim post communist concrete skyrise .
 
Eastern-Odyssey said:
As for the snipers when they were making that last push to parliament the snipers were randomly shooting at people, as seen in this video:
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That really is some level of commitment they were showing there, not giving ground despite their comrades around them being shot and killed by snipers, with the bullets easily passing through the riot shields they were using as protection.
 
free spirit said:
That really is some level of commitment they were showing there, not giving ground despite their comrades around them being shot and killed by snipers, with the bullets easily passing through the riot shields they were using as protection.
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Nazisms a death cult . They dug their heels in at Stalingrad too .
 
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