Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Been reading this thread and the other and it seems that for ordinary Ukrainians they are faced with two rubbish options, either throw their lot in with the thoroughly corrupt, increasingly authoritarian mafia state of Russia or the thoroughly corrupt, increasingly imperialistic neo-liberal monster which is the EU, plus they've got some hard right head bangers thrown in the mix as well.

What a thoroughly depressing situation.

It was agreed between Russia and Ukraine long in advance that the special concessions Ukraine currently enjoys would largely come to an end if it goes into the EU . Ukraines manufacturing base for example would be wiped out if it entered the EU, it couldnt compete with them and also wouldnt enjoy the trade concessions from Russia any further, decimating its trade there . Their products as EU products would be subject to the normal tariffs and Russian protectionism , along with the rest of the EU products flooding their market . Ukraine wont be able to engage in any economic protectionism of its own either, itll have to embrace the free market and the euro too . Its own ailing industries will simply collapse .

And its not just that , theres the subsidised gas theyve made a deal on and when the deals chucked in the bin so logically is the subsidy that accompanied it . And it gets worse . A pretty large amount of Russias electronic arms industry is located in Ukraine, employing a lot of people and garnering serious income for the state . Its a cert all that militarily sensitive stuff will get moved back accross the border pronto if Ukraine lurches westward and NATO start setting up shop , no doubt about that at all . Its a given .

And on top of all that Id say its highly unlikely Ukraine would be able to meet the EU entry test anyway no matter how hard it tries, so it could end up collapsing itself for absolutely nothing .

As far as I can see the main attraction of the EU for Ukranians would be the unimpeded freedom of movement throughout the Eurozone . Surely if thats what they want the sensible thing to do would be for the Ukranian, EU and Russian authorities to all sit down together and try and hammer out some sort of deal that addresses everyones best interests. Instead what we have is EU ministers cheering on people from the barricades and war hungry cunts like John McCain popping up and leading those poor bastards up the garden path in their respective geo political fucking about . Just as he did with the Georgians a few years back, and we know were that false encouragement to stand up to Russia because we have your back ended up for the Georgians. Now hes spinning the Ukranians the same yarn . Wont end well unless commonsense prevails .

 

[goldenecitrone]

Ukraine takes a leaf out of Russia's book and starts brutally attacking opposition journalists.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-beaten-after-alleging-ministerial-corruption

 

[Casually Red]

That journo is well dodgy . Opposition activists themselves unmasked her as leading a group of quite violent provocateurs way at the beginning of this . Theres zero proof this had anything to do with the government . Shes a well murky character .

From Dec 1st
On the way to Maidan, a column of protesters detained a group of provocateurs who attempted to vandalize the mayor’s office by breaking the windows. A group of young masked people dressed in black wearing orange safety helmets was surrounded by opposition activists, who tore the masks off their faces to take photos of the youths for further identification. It turned out that the group was being led by opposition journalist, Tatyana Chornovil.
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protests-court-ban-538/

ETA

And its more correct to describe her as a political activist rather than a journalist . She does a lot more than just write about stuff .

 

[elbows]

I see the BBC reported on a torch-lit Svoboda march the other day. They mention far-right in the headline but the actual article is rather limp and wooly about various things.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25571805

 

[rekil]

In western Ukraine, many revere him as a national hero, while in Russia and eastern Ukraine some accuse him of having co-operated with the Nazis.

Some, just a few ne'er-do-wells, about a dozen, tops.

It's a completely eviscerated version of the original AP story is it not.

.. Bandera did collaborate with the Nazis and receive German funding for subversive acts in the USSR as German forces advanced across Poland and into the Soviet Union at the start of the war.

He fell out with the Nazis in 1941, after the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists declared Ukraine's independence, and he was sent to a concentration camp.

Bandera won back Germany's support in 1944, and he was released. The German army was hoping the Ukrainian insurgents could stop the advance of the Soviet army, which had regained control over much of eastern Ukraine by then. Bandera set up a headquarters in Berlin and oversaw the training of Ukrainian insurgents by the German army.

His group also was involved in the ethnic cleansing that killed tens of thousands of Poles in 1942-44. The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists portrayed Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Jews — most of the minorities in western Ukraine — as aliens and encouraged locals to "destroy" Poles and Jews.

 

[Casually Red]

I see the BBC reported on a torch-lit Svoboda march the other day. They mention far-right in the headline but the actual article is rather limp and wooly about various things.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25571805

they mention some of them were wearing Ukranian German Army uniforms. Its the uniform of the Galician SS, some of the worst scum they had among them . Its an openly neo nazi party but theyre the spearhead of the EUs geopolitical ambitions in Europe. So the BBC and others have to do a bit of airbrushing to cover the blushes of senior British, American and various other EU types openly hobnobbing with neo nazis, and funding them . Fuck they were even feeding them at one point .

some Svoboda pics.

Heres a young nazi with an old nazi at a Svoboda do

Galician SS tribute

svoboda in 99

more dress up

 

[J Ed]

Absolutely incredible that none of this is ever mentioned. Where are the editorials about the rise of fascism with EU support?

 

[Casually Red]

and heres their fuhrer, doing the funny party salute

and heres a chap sharing a platform with an openly neo nazi toerag

 

[teqniq]

Absolutely incredible that none of this is ever mentioned. Where are the editorials about the rise of fascism with EU support?

Where indeed? The Graun has run a number of articles on the recent events in Ukraine. Not one mention of Svoboda.

 

[Casually Red]

Absolutely incredible that none of this is ever mentioned. Where are the editorials about the rise of fascism with EU support?

you think thats bad, you know that revolution Euromaidan headquarters the BBC were so concerned the Ukranian cops might storm, and how they reported breathlessly on the plucky brave defenders of democracy holding the nasty cops back . When it was actually a public building seixed by a bunch of neo nazis demanding the elected government stand down and transfer power to them . No surprise there were no fucking pictures from inside it .

check it out with the white power neo nazi flag on the wall

Democracy HQ my arse

More plucky democrats

 

[Casually Red]

Where indeed? The Graun has run a number of articles on the recent events in Ukraine. Not one mention of Svoboda.

indeed, it was several days of oh noes, the nasty police are being horrid to the neo nazis just because they seized public buildings and demanded to be put in power .

 

[J Ed]

Looks like Scumfront made flesh

 

[Casually Red]

amazing how the British..indeed the entire western press ..seem to have missed all this . All of them... simultaneously . Its not like these guys are hiding their lights...sorry, flaming torchlit processions..under a bushell

 

[Casually Red]

heres an interesting article here concerning a 2006 french piece on the antisemitism of not just Svoboda but their establishment Orange revolution mates and their pet establishment media where, interestingly enough .....

The author explains that he doesn't understand why these facts are not being reported by the European newspapers , he explains that he don't want to analyse the situation in detail but only wish to express his astonishment .

Astonishment indeed , some of this stuff is right out of the 193Os. Unbelievable . 7 years on and theres not a word about it.

http://uklaa.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/about-antisemitism-and-revisionism-in.html

and this article here points out that a major factor behind Svobodas electoral rise has been due to electoral pacts with the fluffy EU created Orange revolution establishment

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-806e-Ukraine-the-untold-story#.UsdAnvu9b-8

some interesting bits there too about Klitsckos german CDU sponsored and funded...and lets face it created...UDAR party . Ill return to that later .

And this article from a Ukranian blogger complaining about graffiti discusses the neo nazi groups decision to rebrand itself with the new non nazi looking symbol , but certainly not rebranding its verminous ideology .

http://www.odessatalk.com/2012/08/s...ir-party-lists-and-i-complain-about-graffiti/

That imagery association was not lost on those who saw it, particularly as the party is far right in orientation.


However, that imagery proved to be a bit of a hindrance combined with the name Social National Party of Ukraine, so in 2004 it had a makeover. It changed its name to Svoboda and changed its logo ...Far more pleasant to look for a non-fascist, and the 3 fingers giving a symbolic representation of the Ukrainian Trizub. Generally a far more socially acceptable name and image than before – even if the ideology hasn’t changed. And it has worked. Svoboda controls several city councils and will get its first RADA MP in this coming election.

The neo nazi party got more than double the vote that blogger estimated, thanks to its pact with the EUs puppet party .

a definite game afoot here . Would have been very difficult for the western liberals to proclaim these heroes of the revolution had there been big wolfs hooks everywhere . As it stands they can basically airbrush the nazism out of the narrative without embarassing pictures .

Which is handy .

 

[Casually Red]

The many thousands cheering thought it was a big fuck you to Putin and Russian imperialism. Unfortunately, they didn't realise the statue's demolishers were right-wingers heralding a fascist coup throughout the country.

yes they did, everyone in ukraine knows Svoboda are a neo nazi party

 

[rekil]

We know some of them are into the old nazi stuff but still, Is this pic legit? Klitschko tried to stop them attacking the coppers and they fire extinguishered him.

 

[Casually Red]

View attachment 46788

We know some of them are into the old nazi stuff but still, Is this pic legit? Klitschko tried to stop them attacking the coppers and they fire extinguishered him.

Klitschko is just a Berlin puppet . A western creation to serve the sole purpose of having someone on that platform who they can be seen dealing with who isnt so resolutely morally repugnant..that is not a total nazi . He lives in Berlin, not Ukraine . His party and its policies were conceived there and its funded and directed from there via the Adenaeur foundation .
those guys on the street are proper full on nazis and couldnt give a toss about him . They have their own agenda . Theyre the svoboda hardcore and its a nazi party even if theyve been persuaded itd be more effective to put the overt symbols to one side for tactical purposes .

 

[rekil]

I know all that ffs

 

[Casually Red]

well dont you forget it

 

[Idris2002]

you think thats bad, you know that revolution Euromaidan headquarters the BBC were so concerned the Ukranian cops might storm, and how they reported breathlessly on the plucky brave defenders of democracy holding the nasty cops back . When it was actually a public building seixed by a bunch of neo nazis demanding the elected government stand down and transfer power to them . No surprise there were no fucking pictures from inside it .

check it out with the white power neo nazi flag on the wall

Democracy HQ my arse

More plucky democrats

Jesus fucking christ, this is appalling. In Ken Macleod's Fall Revolution books, the global war of 2025 starts with a meltdown in Ukraine, btw. . .

 

[Casually Red]

Jesus fucking christ, this is appalling. In Ken Macleod's Fall Revolution books, the global war of 2025 starts with a meltdown in Ukraine, btw. . .

oh fuck

 

[Idris2002]

oh fuck

This guy also gives a date of 2025 for the next bit of fun:

http://www.sociostudies.org/journal/files/seh/2007_2/war_cycles.pdf

Something for the kids to look forward to.

 

[Casually Red]

Id like that except I dont like it, if you know what I mean

 

[yield]

This guy also gives a date of 2025 for the next bit of fun:

http://www.sociostudies.org/journal/files/seh/2007_2/war_cycles.pdf

Something for the kids to look forward to.

Interesting article Idris thanks.

The triumphalism of America being the unrivalled military hegemonic power of our world notwithstanding, we believe that a serious strategic and political science analysis quickly reveals the direct manpower and other military constraints against continued U.S. military and political dominance in world affairs (Adams 2005). It is often said that like Old Rome, America is without parallels in terms of military strength.

But such claims are a simple myth, resting upon military spending figures that just demonstrate that the Pentagon spends a real lot of money converted into international exchange rates that are still favorable to the US Dollar but which are exchange rates untenable in the long run in view of the huge double deficits of the US economy. What is unparalleled in human history is not the ‘bang’ that the US Conventional Forces can deliver on the ground, especially in a guerrilla warfare situation, but the ‘buck’ that went to the Pentagon defense contractors, indeed an amount really unparalleled around the globe.

They think it'll be USA versus a Germany led EU or Japan though.

Edit: Article also links to http://eclectic.ss.uci.edu/~drwhite/Anthro179a/inflate1text.htm

 

[Idris2002]

More violence in Kiev as Russia tells EU "hands off":

http://www.dw.de/after-another-nigh...opeans-not-to-interfere-in-ukraine/a-17375505

 

[SpineyNorman]

and heres a chap sharing a platform with an openly neo nazi toerag

 

[J Ed]

I can't think why Russia would object to openly anti-Russian EU and US backed neo-Nazis in a country on their border with a large Russian population...

 

[Cloo]

My dad posted at 2pm (having been sent home from work)

Kyiv 22 January - exact 109th anniversary of St.Petersburg Bloody Sunday - black smoke rolling behind Maidan and Khreshchyatik (presumably from area around Parliament) - shops closed - people walking about with clubs, sticks, even axes, some rushing with tyres and other materials to buil up barricades - ambulances stacking up in streets behind Maidan - attack of militia rumoured to be starting at 16.00, five minutes from now.......

 

[likesfish]

Ukraine is the scene for various video games or heroic american peackeepers blowing the crap put of various beastly russians
Trouble is vlad could make free milk and cookies seem like a threat.
Dont think merkal is keen on a greater EU but some of her advisors may have dug out the old maps and looking wistfully east

 

[pocketscience]

Live stream from central Kiew... it's a burning!
http://m.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan