Ukraine

[rekil]

He 'read' history at Oxford. Makes you think.

 

[treelover]

In Ukraine itself I think a large number of them are fully aware (as opposed to their cheerleaders in the west)

I posted this quote below in the other thread on the far right in Ukraine a while ago which looked at the appeal of Svoboda to the politically active & liberal ukrainian youth & media

That is so strange, a few years ago, I met a 30 something punk musician who had always been on the left and who was endorsing Jobbik on similar grounds.

 

[Cloo]

Are you aware that all those blue & yellow flags are Svoboda flags, an extreme right wing party whose leader claims that Ukraine is currently run by a 'Muscovite-Jewish mafia'

nope but not at all surprised. Far right always has a field day in that neck of the woods at times like this after all.

 

[chasbo zelena]

 

[butchersapron]

Look at the colours mate.

 

[butchersapron]

That Lenin statue has gone now.

 

[chasbo zelena]

I'm all ears.

 

[elbows]

Look at the colours mate.

Without wishing to downplay the role of Svoboda, we might have to apply some additional caution with colour assumptions due to the Ukrainian national flag (not to mention the EU one) also being those colours?

Our media generally seem very keen not to mention Svoboda much, and will direct focus towards the likes of Klitschko when they can.

The Guardian combined these themes by going with this in their latest article:

The protesters carried the yellow-and-blue flags of both Ukraine and the European Union. Although some also waved flags of political parties, the majority of those on the streets were not supporters of particular parties.

"We do not want to be kept quiet by a policeman's truncheon," heavyweight boxer and opposition leader Vitali Klitschko told the crowd.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sition-viktor-yanukovych-european-integration

The FT chose to do a profile on Klitschko as possible future leader.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/24824ffc-5d16-11e3-a558-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2murr3djy

 

[elbows]

Some snippets from another FT article that I thought were of interest:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7669066a-601f-11e3-b360-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2murr3djy

The SBU, said it was investigating several opposition leaders on suspicion of conspiring to seize power as political allies of President Yanukovich repeated accusations that the demonstrators were plotting a coup.

Protest organisers insist their aim is peaceful and intended to press Mr Yanukovich into signing the EU agreements. But calls for more radical action to “sweep Mr Yanukovich from power” were heard on Sunday on the streets of Kiev.

“We hope to achieve our results peacefully [and] democratically through snap elections,” said 51-year-old Volodymyr Rykmas, one of about 1,000 Afghan war veterans who say they are protecting the crowds from riot police and “provocateurs” after violent clashes in recent days. “We will stand to the end,” he added. “We have enough troops on the ground … enough resolve.”

Foreign currency reserves declined by almost 9 per cent, down $2bn to some $18.8bn, owing to currency interventions last month, the National Bank of Ukraine revealed.

Speaking on state television on Saturday, first deputy prime minister Serhiy Arbuzov said his government needed at least $10bn in loans to cover near-term balance-of-payment needs. With rating agencies downgrading Ukraine’s sovereign rating and talk by the US Federal Reserve of “tapering”, or reducing its quantitative easing programme, analysts said borrowing on the eurobond market has become too expensive for Kiev.

The International Monetary Fund has expressed its willingness to bail out Kiev but local authorities have balked at its loan conditions. In an interview with a local newspaper published this weekend, the IMF’s local representative denied Kiev’s claims that it was demanding sharp rises in energy prices for the poorest as a condition for a loan.

Instead, the IMF wanted incremental increases of up to 40 per cent for wealthier Ukrainians, allowing subsidies for the poor to be sustained while also reducing the budget deficit.

 

[Casually Red]

Theyre fucking idiots . Ukraines economy is almost wholly dependent on favourable trade agreements with Russia . The deal with the EU would see the Russian economy undermined by EU imports flooding through Ukraine, so Russia would immediately have to end its agreements . Ukraine would plummet off a cliff at that point . They should be careful of what they wish for, they might just get it .

 

[Cloo]

Mood has changed tonight according to my dad. Metro stations and banks shut, lots more police on square. Might really kick off. He's staying in.

 

[camouflage]

Tough crowd.

 

[camouflage]

Without wishing to downplay the role of Svoboda, we might have to apply some additional caution with colour assumptions due to the Ukrainian national flag (not to mention the EU one) also being those colours?

Our media generally seem very keen not to mention Svoboda much, and will direct focus towards the likes of Klitschko when they can.

The Guardian combined these themes by going with this in their latest article:





http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sition-viktor-yanukovych-european-integration

The FT chose to do a profile on Klitschko as possible future leader.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/24824ffc-5d16-11e3-a558-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2murr3djy

Heavyweight boxer eh... guess it's a strongman they're after.

 

[elbows]

Sounds like the SBU raided Tymoshemko's party headquarters and took away a server. Quite possibly their web server as apparently their site is down.

http://www.trust.org/item/20131209162515-a2uhz

 

[butchersapron]

The fist pic is a piano painted in far-right colours. Far-righters hve finally pulled down the Lenin Statue target.

Heavyweight boxer eh... guess it's a strongman they're after.

It's a merkel catspaw they're after. He's their trained and paid for monkey.

 

[elbows]

Mood has changed tonight according to my dad. Metro stations and banks shut, lots more police on square. Might really kick off. He's staying in.

Most of the press stories from today make it sound like the police are/will move against the protesters that are occupying government buildings or are blocking routes just outside them. From what I've read so far they haven't gone for the main indoor protest at city hall yet, and authorities have said that they were not taking action at independence square itself.

Meanwhile Svoboda leader Tiahnybok has come out with just the sort of propaganda we might expect from them at this point.

"With the aim of organizing mass disorder, employees of the relevant level from the Russian Federal Security Service and police have arrived. They are already on the territory of Ukraine," Tiahnybok said at a press briefing at the opposition-occupied House of Trade Unions in Kyiv.

www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/tiahnybok-says-russian-special-services-arrive-to-ukraine-333322.html

 

[Cloo]

My dad said yesterday that police weretaking over courtyards off the main drag to station vehicles.

Tad worried tonight but be knows the territory and will keep out of the fray. Just hope nothing too awful happens to folks on the street, but not too hopeful about that

 

[elbows]

Meanwhile the likes of the USA and Germany are coming out with warnings about violence. The usual ones that say they beg all sides to restrain themselves but generally mean to apply pressure to one side in particular. Usually the government side when that government isn't doing everything 'we' want and the opposition can be made use of.

Our media are having a slightly harder time spinning these events than they had with those that followed the 'undermine election legitimacy' template of the colour revolutions. Not much harder admittedly. But they have to make notable omissions about all sorts of politics & political parties to make their articles smell rosy and align with 'our values', whereas with the colour revolutions often all they needed to leave out was who was funding them.

 

[CyberRose]

Have to say it's times like these I'm genuinely grateful to the good people of U75. I'd never have known anything about Svoboda if it weren't for these threads. I've had a quick search around and the BBC only mention them in passing (not giving any indication as to how involved they are). Likewise with the Guardian (have they just dropped a bollock here trying to be the "newspaper of choice for the generic protester"?)

Here's an article from the Jerusalem Post on Svoboda...

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/J...s-split-on-dangers-of-protest-movement-333907

That does mention that some student protesters pushed a Svoboda member off a podium at a rally in Kiev and of course the other two main opposition parties are involved in the protest so how much of this is protest is down to Svoboda? Is it 'their' protest or are they piggybacking on something else?

 

[Casually Red]

cops going in in force all over the place

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25307255

it looks bloody cold over there. Although not near as cold as it would be if Russia decided they didnt want to sell them cut price gas any more.

 

[chasbo zelena]

Going out to Kiev on Holiday after a Slovak NYE gig.

 

[Idris2002]

Theyre fucking idiots . Ukraines economy is almost wholly dependent on favourable trade agreements with Russia . The deal with the EU would see the Russian economy undermined by EU imports flooding through Ukraine, so Russia would immediately have to end its agreements . Ukraine would plummet off a cliff at that point . They should be careful of what they wish for, they might just get it .

According to this New York Times piece, the Ukrainian oligarchs are badly split amongst themselves, with pro- and anti-Russian factions battling it out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/07/world/europe/oligarchs-ukraine.html?_r=0

No honour among thieves.

 

[love detective]

most of the prominent oligarchs having seen what has happened in Russia over the last 10 years or so are tacitly in favour as they see EU integration as the best guarantee of their property rights in the long term

all the oligarch owned tv stations have been given free reign to cover the protests as objectively as possible, and there are lots of rumours about financing of the protests coming from oligarchs

as someone else said the oligarchs don't care about 'european values' but they care very much about european value

 

[youngian]

Some daft conspiracy theories here about the counter revolutionary reactionaries bringing thousands of people on the streets of Kiev but I would have thought it was pretty obvious that they would rather live in an open Western democratic society with a rule of law than be under the shadow of the Kremlin.

I've always believed that expanding NATO and the EU eastwards would create friction with Russia but you can't deny Eastern Europeans a relationship with the West (that Central Europe and the Baltic now enjoy) if thats what they want. The days of carving up Europe at Yalta to maintain the balance of power are long gone thank god.

 

[Casually Red]

Except a hell of a lot of Ukranians, a majority of them in fact, seem to have voted for more pro Russian politicians . They dont seem to want a relationship within the EU . And theyre free to change minds and politicians at elections . What the opposition ...the minority...seem to be attempting here is pro western regime change without elections . With open EU encouragement . Theres a massive section of the population particularly to the east of Ukraine whod prefer a close relationship with Russia .
The EU are openly demanding a sovereign state overturn its internal democratic decisions, while encouraging people to take to the streets to make that happen. Theyre openly encouraging the seizure of government buildings, the barricading of streets, all sorts . Thats absolutely outrageous .

and if Putin was doing that this forum would be howling mad

 

[Casually Red]

all the oligarch owned tv stations have been given free reign to cover the protests as objectively as possible, and there are lots of rumours about financing of the protests coming from oligarchs

in fairness theyve been more interested in instigating protests as opposed to covering them objectively, similar to what the Venezuelan media got up to . Scaremongering about impending Russian invasions and all sorts ,lies about tanks on the outskirts of Kiev, all sorts of fake reports to ratchet up tensions and get eveb more out on the streets. At one stage they were even claiming the statue of liberty and the Rio Christ had been lit up in Ukranian colours as proof the entire world are supporting them . Bonkers stuff .

 

[Citizen66]

What I don't understand is why the far right are pushing for links with the EU. Or are they being used as useful idiots?

 

[Casually Red]

What I don't understand is why the far right are pushing for links with the EU. Or are they being used as useful idiots?

because this particular far right hate the Russians intensely, as well as other Ukranians from various ethnic backgrounds who tend to be pro Russian. As well as seeing an opportunity to create a power vaccuum and then fill it . And the EUs representatives are more than happy to deal with them . Plus therell be finance aplenty for their activities from all sorts of anti Russian interests within and without the Ukraine.

 

[Citizen66]

And the EUs representatives are more than happy to deal with them .

Yeah, that's the other bit I don't really understand. I thought embracing neo liberalism was sort of a requirement to being let into the club.

 

[Casually Red]

being anti russian will do, and regardless of whether the fash embrace neo liberalism or not once Ukraine is tied into the EU and IMF it wont have a choice, neo liberalism will have embraced them .