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So this is about extending the EU's sphere of influence up to Russia's border? Sounds interesting. Won't Russia send the tanks in like with Georgia?
 
So this is about extending the EU's sphere of influence up to Russia's border? Sounds interesting. Won't Russia send the tanks in like with Georgia?


And NATOs influence .

And Russia only sent the tanks in to Georgia after Georgia, rather foolishly, launched a pretty massive all out artillery and armoured assault on its peacekeepers and the autonomous enclaves. Georgia, whose government is staunchly pro US, can do whatever it wants politically and economically as long as it doesnt involve dropping bombs on Russians.
That type of scenario isnt at all likely in Ukraine. Never happened during the Orange ballsology, wont happen now .
 
anyways looks like the protestors main camps and barricades in Independence square are being methodically cleared tonight, no signs of any particular brutality despite the scale of the police and special forces operation . Klitchsko is demanding the President resign . That doesnt look like whats likely to happen at this point.

I must say it was very nice of the likes of all those EU ambassadors to show up and stand in solidarity with the people storming government buildings and sealing off areas with barricades. I missed them showing the same solidarity with the absolutely massive Spanish and Greek demonstrations . As well as the demonstrators in prospective EU entrant Turkey. Whose cops made the Ukranians look like a bunch of hippies .
 
This morning militia outside the town hall apparently. Crowd has gathered shouting 'thugs out! ' and 'Kiev arise!'.
 
Talks and compromise. What the fuck is going on? The protestors are building barricades out of snow.
 
Why the whining about the Lenin statue being knocked over? It's only natural. These people lived under the boot of Soviet Communism for about 70 years.

The many thousands cheering thought it was a big fuck you to Putin and Russian imperialism. Unfortunately, they didn't realise the statue's demolishers were right-wingers heralding a fascist coup throughout the country.
 
Interesting comment from my dad today about anti Euro propaganda in Ukrainian media:

No. 1 which they trot out is that joining the EU will force Ukraine to allow gay marriages and rights to sexual minorities (presumably this argument goes down big with babushki in the villages); no. 2 that prices will immediately rise 10 fold; no. 3 that joining would mean half the population losing their jobs. And I've also noticed on my computer pop-up Google ads telling me I risk getting tuberculosis by visiting the Maidan (there's personalised ads for you!).
 
Citizen66 well there is the NGO "hyde park" who were involved in the protests in moldova and if it was reported on in the UK at all it was to present them as a liberal organisation, i read a leaflet from them (or someone linked to them) that was full of anti russian racism

Also the protests took place with a real mixture of groups, many of them EU supporting "liberals" but some of them far right (one of them hung this flag from the parliament building for example)

images
 
sort of , the point im trying to make is there was some fash involvement, but they had support from european liberal-leaning organisations (although largely made up of ethnic moldovans/romanians)

it's a mistake to say all the protesters were fash or EU supporting liberals though, a lot of ordinary moldovan people did support them, although they were largely from an ethnic moldovan background due to the fact the "communist" party has essentially become a party for the russian minority as well as older people in the countryside

also the group who ended up coming to power off the back of this were moderate romanian nationalists with economically liberal policies who were the largest party in a coalition that included anything from greens to fash. a party which did have quite a lot of popular support but are now pretty much universally despised.
 
Ahh, it's to confusing, met a Russian folk singer in Estonia claiming he was the hard done one.

russians in estonia (and to some extent moldova etc) do suffer discrimination though, there are loads iirc who are still without citizenship.

they're a sizeable minority and russia has a considerable influence over those countries but that's not to say that there isn't discrimination, when i was there there were a number of new laws (such as moving the christmas public holiday from january 6th from december 25th) which seemed to be aimed at the russian speaking minority
 
Russia has zero political influence over Estonia, as it is part of the EU.

Sure, there are big business interests, and embarrassments such as the Hermann Siim spy case a few years ago (Russia used Siim as a greedy useful idiot to gain access to EU / NATO secrets) but there is no political influence beyond a lingering Estonian paranoia about the return of the Soviet Union. It is true though that many Russians suffer from some kind of discrimination there- although worth noting that very, very few took Putin up on his invitation to return to the motherland (and presumably be dumped in noprospectsgrad in a block no one else wnats to live in). Many younger Russians learn Estonian to take advanatge of jobs there, which their parents never coutnenanced doing in Soviet times.

Moldova, being of course out of the EU and a seething, corrupt, divided mess, is a different matter altogether.
 
The many thousands cheering thought it was a big fuck you to Putin and Russian imperialism. Unfortunately, they didn't realise the statue's demolishers were right-wingers heralding a fascist coup throughout the country.

the fascist group responsible have many thousands of supporters and members . Theyre quite big, in fact there was a thread on it your most definitely aware of . And as theyre calling for the elected governments overthrow it is indeed an attempt at a fascist coup .
 
Interesting comment from my dad today about anti Euro propaganda in Ukrainian media:

No. 1 which they trot out is that joining the EU will force Ukraine to allow gay marriages and rights to sexual minorities (presumably this argument goes down big with babushki in the villages); no. 2 that prices will immediately rise 10 fold; no. 3 that joining would mean half the population losing their jobs. And I've also noticed on my computer pop-up Google ads telling me I risk getting tuberculosis by visiting the Maidan (there's personalised ads for you!).


just out of interest have you read the set of demands that the EU has made to the Ukranian parliament that theyve rejected ?
 
McCain in the Ukraine :facepalm:

With the news that the EU has suspended negotiations on the agreementlikely to further inflame the mood, at least 200,000 people packed into Independence Square, known as the maidan, to hear music and speeches from the trio of Ukrainian politicians who have attempted to lead the spontaneous outpouring of anger.

They were joined early in the afternoon by US Republican senator John McCain, who has made a sport of baiting Vladimir Putin at various locations across the former Soviet Union.

"The destiny you seek lies in Europe," McCain told the crowd, to rapturous applause. "People of Ukraine, this is your moment. The free world is with you, America is with you, I am with you."

McCain was joined by a Democratic senator Chris Murphy, who told the crowds they were making history. "If you are successful, the US Senate will stand with you all the way," he said, in comments likely to infuriate Moscow, which has accused Brussels and the west of interfering in Ukrainian politics.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/ukraine-protesters-return-central-kiev-eu-campaign

"Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better," he said to crowds protesting against President Viktor Yanukovich's U-turn in trade policy away from Europe towards Russia.

"We are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe," said McCain, a leading Republican voice on US foreign policy.

Speaking to CNN on Sunday, McCain said: “What we're trying to do is try to bring about a peaceful transition here, that would stop the violence and give the Ukrainian people what they unfortunately have not had, with different revolutions that have taken place – a real society. This is a grassroots revolution here – it's been peaceful except when the government tried to crack down on them, and the government hasn't tried that since.

“I'm praising their ability and their desire to demonstrate peacefully for change that I think they deserve.”

Asked about Russian president Vladimir Putin's role in the crisis, McCain said: “There's no doubt that Ukraine is of vital importance to Putin. I think it was [Henry] Kissinger, I'm not sure, said that Russia, without Ukraine it's an eastern power, with Ukraine it's a western power. This is the beginning of Russia, right here in Kiev. So Putin views it as most highly important and he has put pressure on Ukrainians – the price of energy, different kinds of activities. The word is very clear that he has made certain threats. Whether he would carry them through I don't know.”

“He's put pressure on Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia – all of the so-called 'near-abroad'. And of course Ukraine is the crown jewel.”

Asked by CNN host Candy Crowley whether now was a good time to be be “taking Russia on”, given US diplomatic co-operation with Russia on issues such as Iran's nuclear programme and the civil war in Syria, McCain said: “I don't think we would be 'taking on Russia'.

“These people love the United States of America, they love freedom – and I don't think you could view this as anything other than our traditional support for people who want free and democratic society.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause
 
Anyways Russia has just confirmed its moved a load of medium range nuclear missiles into Kaliningrad . Poles and Germans cracking up .
Meanwhile in Kiev government supporters are out demonstrating as well, just metres from the wests puppets . Hope that doesnt turn ugly .
 
Been reading this thread and the other and it seems that for ordinary Ukrainians they are faced with two rubbish options, either throw their lot in with the thoroughly corrupt, increasingly authoritarian mafia state of Russia or the thoroughly corrupt, increasingly imperialistic neo-liberal monster which is the EU, plus they've got some hard right head bangers thrown in the mix as well.

What a thoroughly depressing situation.
 
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