Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Russian neo-liberalism already has.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
And NATOs influence .
And Russia only sent the tanks in to Georgia after Georgia, rather foolishly, launched a pretty massive all out artillery and armoured assault on its peacekeepers and the autonomous enclaves. Georgia, whose government is staunchly pro US, can do whatever it wants politically and economically as long as it doesnt involve dropping bombs on Russians.
That type of scenario isnt at all likely in Ukraine. Never happened during the Orange ballsology, wont happen now .
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Has Casually Google still got me on ignore?
lol.
lol.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
anyways looks like the protestors main camps and barricades in Independence square are being methodically cleared tonight, no signs of any particular brutality despite the scale of the police and special forces operation . Klitchsko is demanding the President resign . That doesnt look like whats likely to happen at this point.
I must say it was very nice of the likes of all those EU ambassadors to show up and stand in solidarity with the people storming government buildings and sealing off areas with barricades. I missed them showing the same solidarity with the absolutely massive Spanish and Greek demonstrations . As well as the demonstrators in prospective EU entrant Turkey. Whose cops made the Ukranians look like a bunch of hippies .
I must say it was very nice of the likes of all those EU ambassadors to show up and stand in solidarity with the people storming government buildings and sealing off areas with barricades. I missed them showing the same solidarity with the absolutely massive Spanish and Greek demonstrations . As well as the demonstrators in prospective EU entrant Turkey. Whose cops made the Ukranians look like a bunch of hippies .
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Seems the proclamations of a fascist coup have been greatly exaggerated. Fancy that.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i know some stuff about this - will reply later
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
The many thousands cheering thought it was a big fuck you to Putin and Russian imperialism. Unfortunately, they didn't realise the statue's demolishers were right-wingers heralding a fascist coup throughout the country.
Cloo
Approved by toads
Interesting comment from my dad today about anti Euro propaganda in Ukrainian media:
No. 1 which they trot out is that joining the EU will force Ukraine to allow gay marriages and rights to sexual minorities (presumably this argument goes down big with babushki in the villages); no. 2 that prices will immediately rise 10 fold; no. 3 that joining would mean half the population losing their jobs. And I've also noticed on my computer pop-up Google ads telling me I risk getting tuberculosis by visiting the Maidan (there's personalised ads for you!).
No. 1 which they trot out is that joining the EU will force Ukraine to allow gay marriages and rights to sexual minorities (presumably this argument goes down big with babushki in the villages); no. 2 that prices will immediately rise 10 fold; no. 3 that joining would mean half the population losing their jobs. And I've also noticed on my computer pop-up Google ads telling me I risk getting tuberculosis by visiting the Maidan (there's personalised ads for you!).
"no. 2 that prices will immediately rise 10 fold"
Did put up prices in SK quite a bit to be fair.
Did put up prices in SK quite a bit to be fair.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Citizen66 well there is the NGO "hyde park" who were involved in the protests in moldova and if it was reported on in the UK at all it was to present them as a liberal organisation, i read a leaflet from them (or someone linked to them) that was full of anti russian racism
Also the protests took place with a real mixture of groups, many of them EU supporting "liberals" but some of them far right (one of them hung this flag from the parliament building for example)
Also the protests took place with a real mixture of groups, many of them EU supporting "liberals" but some of them far right (one of them hung this flag from the parliament building for example)
That's good right?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
sort of , the point im trying to make is there was some fash involvement, but they had support from european liberal-leaning organisations (although largely made up of ethnic moldovans/romanians)
it's a mistake to say all the protesters were fash or EU supporting liberals though, a lot of ordinary moldovan people did support them, although they were largely from an ethnic moldovan background due to the fact the "communist" party has essentially become a party for the russian minority as well as older people in the countryside
also the group who ended up coming to power off the back of this were moderate romanian nationalists with economically liberal policies who were the largest party in a coalition that included anything from greens to fash. a party which did have quite a lot of popular support but are now pretty much universally despised.
it's a mistake to say all the protesters were fash or EU supporting liberals though, a lot of ordinary moldovan people did support them, although they were largely from an ethnic moldovan background due to the fact the "communist" party has essentially become a party for the russian minority as well as older people in the countryside
also the group who ended up coming to power off the back of this were moderate romanian nationalists with economically liberal policies who were the largest party in a coalition that included anything from greens to fash. a party which did have quite a lot of popular support but are now pretty much universally despised.
Ahh, it's to confusing, met a Russian folk singer in Estonia claiming he was the hard done one.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
russians in estonia (and to some extent moldova etc) do suffer discrimination though, there are loads iirc who are still without citizenship.
they're a sizeable minority and russia has a considerable influence over those countries but that's not to say that there isn't discrimination, when i was there there were a number of new laws (such as moving the christmas public holiday from january 6th from december 25th) which seemed to be aimed at the russian speaking minority
steeplejack
I'm Away Right Now
Russia has zero political influence over Estonia, as it is part of the EU.
Sure, there are big business interests, and embarrassments such as the Hermann Siim spy case a few years ago (Russia used Siim as a greedy useful idiot to gain access to EU / NATO secrets) but there is no political influence beyond a lingering Estonian paranoia about the return of the Soviet Union. It is true though that many Russians suffer from some kind of discrimination there- although worth noting that very, very few took Putin up on his invitation to return to the motherland (and presumably be dumped in noprospectsgrad in a block no one else wnats to live in). Many younger Russians learn Estonian to take advanatge of jobs there, which their parents never coutnenanced doing in Soviet times.
Moldova, being of course out of the EU and a seething, corrupt, divided mess, is a different matter altogether.
Sure, there are big business interests, and embarrassments such as the Hermann Siim spy case a few years ago (Russia used Siim as a greedy useful idiot to gain access to EU / NATO secrets) but there is no political influence beyond a lingering Estonian paranoia about the return of the Soviet Union. It is true though that many Russians suffer from some kind of discrimination there- although worth noting that very, very few took Putin up on his invitation to return to the motherland (and presumably be dumped in noprospectsgrad in a block no one else wnats to live in). Many younger Russians learn Estonian to take advanatge of jobs there, which their parents never coutnenanced doing in Soviet times.
Moldova, being of course out of the EU and a seething, corrupt, divided mess, is a different matter altogether.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
the fascist group responsible have many thousands of supporters and members . Theyre quite big, in fact there was a thread on it your most definitely aware of . And as theyre calling for the elected governments overthrow it is indeed an attempt at a fascist coup .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
just out of interest have you read the set of demands that the EU has made to the Ukranian parliament that theyve rejected ?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Cloo
Approved by toads
No, can't say I have; was just passing on the comment as it seemed of interest.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Anyways Russia has just confirmed its moved a load of medium range nuclear missiles into Kaliningrad . Poles and Germans cracking up .
Meanwhile in Kiev government supporters are out demonstrating as well, just metres from the wests puppets . Hope that doesnt turn ugly .
Meanwhile in Kiev government supporters are out demonstrating as well, just metres from the wests puppets . Hope that doesnt turn ugly .
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
All the people the government bussed in went straight back home after a few hours. Too cold and their heart wasn't in it.
Been reading this thread and the other and it seems that for ordinary Ukrainians they are faced with two rubbish options, either throw their lot in with the thoroughly corrupt, increasingly authoritarian mafia state of Russia or the thoroughly corrupt, increasingly imperialistic neo-liberal monster which is the EU, plus they've got some hard right head bangers thrown in the mix as well.
What a thoroughly depressing situation.
What a thoroughly depressing situation.
