classicdish
Well-Known Member
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Ukraine
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scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
If it seems strange to some that anti-Maidan or pro-Russian demos have communist elements alongside nationalist or monarchist ones, maybe this is down to different perceptions of communism in the West and in Russia respectively...I would suggest that our view of communism in the West is that of an internationalist movement - mediated by our memories of the Spanish Civil War, and later in the 1960s, of the New Left.
But IMHO in Russia its associated just as much with the Great Patriotic War, and later, with a strong Cold War-era Russia (well, Soviet Union) - Stalin's 'socialism in one country' (and now I understand Putin is reviving aspects of the old USSR, presumably to hark back to an era when Russia was one of the two undoubted global powers). It's not, therefore, surprising to see that communist flags and slogans may be seen alongside nationalist or even fascist ones.
Acknowledgement of far-right elements in the anti-Maidan doesn't imply support or approval for the Kiev lot.
But IMHO in Russia its associated just as much with the Great Patriotic War, and later, with a strong Cold War-era Russia (well, Soviet Union) - Stalin's 'socialism in one country' (and now I understand Putin is reviving aspects of the old USSR, presumably to hark back to an era when Russia was one of the two undoubted global powers). It's not, therefore, surprising to see that communist flags and slogans may be seen alongside nationalist or even fascist ones.
Acknowledgement of far-right elements in the anti-Maidan doesn't imply support or approval for the Kiev lot.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Remember that they call it the Great Patriotic War, because the first 'patriotic war' was the war against Napoleon. So for them it was at least as much a nationalist as an internationalist struggle, if not more so.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Stalin was an 'internationalist' in his own way, within certain limits in the Soviet Union and prospects for the realisation of communism worldwide. Was 'socialism in one country' really his?
Putin isn't reviving the USSR (but selectively recognises its achievements minus Marxism-Leninism) so much as reasserting Russia's standing as a great power, and not with the aim of reaching 'superpower' status. The Russian elite can't.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is from a comrade i know in the autonomous workers union in the eastern donbass - it addresses the stuff i've been trying to get info on - the miners and other workers in that region and their relations with the various sides/factions etc:
Rabkor is essentially writing fantasy fiction about Donbass.
In reality, miners' unions are pro-unity and took part in unity rallies in Donetsk under Ukrainian flags. They have a good reason to do so: the problem of Donbass is that the coal expensive and low-quality, all the mines are very deep because all the top layers have already been mined; thus Donbass coal mines wouldn't survive free market competition.
However, Ukrainian government keeps them afloat by subsidies for two reasons.
The first reason is that coal miners are surely the best organized and most militant group of workers in Ukraine that launched massive strikes in the 90s so the government fears them.
The second one is Russian gas price for Ukraine which is so high that it's reasonable to buy Russian gas back from the EU countries. This creates demand for Ukrainian coal as an alternative to Russian gas.
Should Donbass join Russia, this would change since Russia has much cheaper open-pit coal from Siberia, not saying about oil and gas. In the Russian part of Donbass all coal mines were closed except the two belonging to Ukrainian oligarch Rinat Akhmetov.
And independent Donbass would not have the financial resources needed to sustain its coal mining. Thus miners have good reasons for being pro-unity.
The recent strike in Krasnodon on Rinat Akhmetov's mines had pure economical reasons - it was directed against Akhmetov's wage cuts and according to reports from the site of the events, the miners distanced themselves from separatists and did not put forward anti-government slogans.
As for Yenakiyevo, Ukrainian media report just about 300-strong mob of separatists seizing Akhmetov's company office. I can't either verify or confirm their relation to miners or metal workers.
Thererfore separatists are generally hostile to miners' unions. Here are some statements:
http://kvpu.org.ua/uk/news/6/3144/z...-ukraini-shhodo-zagrozlivoi-situacii-v-kraini
http://kvpu.org.ua/uk/news/6/3142/zayava-kvpu-shhodo-ostannikh-podijj-v-kraini
http://kvpu.org.ua/uk/news/4/3148/separatisty-zakhvatili-gp-"artemugol"-v-gorlovke
I would say that the pro-Russian militias pose greater fascist threat to miners than government in Kiev.
Rabkor is essentially writing fantasy fiction about Donbass.
In reality, miners' unions are pro-unity and took part in unity rallies in Donetsk under Ukrainian flags. They have a good reason to do so: the problem of Donbass is that the coal expensive and low-quality, all the mines are very deep because all the top layers have already been mined; thus Donbass coal mines wouldn't survive free market competition.
However, Ukrainian government keeps them afloat by subsidies for two reasons.
The first reason is that coal miners are surely the best organized and most militant group of workers in Ukraine that launched massive strikes in the 90s so the government fears them.
The second one is Russian gas price for Ukraine which is so high that it's reasonable to buy Russian gas back from the EU countries. This creates demand for Ukrainian coal as an alternative to Russian gas.
Should Donbass join Russia, this would change since Russia has much cheaper open-pit coal from Siberia, not saying about oil and gas. In the Russian part of Donbass all coal mines were closed except the two belonging to Ukrainian oligarch Rinat Akhmetov.
And independent Donbass would not have the financial resources needed to sustain its coal mining. Thus miners have good reasons for being pro-unity.
The recent strike in Krasnodon on Rinat Akhmetov's mines had pure economical reasons - it was directed against Akhmetov's wage cuts and according to reports from the site of the events, the miners distanced themselves from separatists and did not put forward anti-government slogans.
As for Yenakiyevo, Ukrainian media report just about 300-strong mob of separatists seizing Akhmetov's company office. I can't either verify or confirm their relation to miners or metal workers.
Thererfore separatists are generally hostile to miners' unions. Here are some statements:
http://kvpu.org.ua/uk/news/6/3144/z...-ukraini-shhodo-zagrozlivoi-situacii-v-kraini
http://kvpu.org.ua/uk/news/6/3142/zayava-kvpu-shhodo-ostannikh-podijj-v-kraini
http://kvpu.org.ua/uk/news/4/3148/separatisty-zakhvatili-gp-"artemugol"-v-gorlovke
I would say that the pro-Russian militias pose greater fascist threat to miners than government in Kiev.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
imagine that there were massive protests against the tories in the UK, with a significant presence of consprialoons/freemen on the land/EDL/BNP and the like, not being funny any protests on the scale of the maidan would inevitably involve such elements i mean the left have a hard enough time keeping them off their demos and not ignoring them as it is ffs, and people don't seem to realise how much far-right discourse has seeped into anti-government discourse among certain circles. the majority of demands obviously against the tories and for economic demands.
now imagine that these protests to some extent succeeded in their aims, but the aims of overthrowing the government only rather than any sort of political or social change apart from to the right, a hodge podge of labour/lib-dem/ukip politicians military types and fash/conspiraloons etc were governing the country in an unstable coalition.
now imagine that areas controlled by the tories were saying that they don't recognise the authority of the government, that it's a fascist state, pointing to all the UKIP/BNP etc types involved, also saying that anyone who supported these protests were fascists. imagine that wycombe district council was to say that high wycombe is now going to be the "independent state of high wycombe" because the UK now is a "fascist state" and must be opposed, they walk into government buildings that they formerly lost, very very quickly the various factions would start killing each other and people would be forced into picking a side even if they hated both of them.
now imagine that these protests to some extent succeeded in their aims, but the aims of overthrowing the government only rather than any sort of political or social change apart from to the right, a hodge podge of labour/lib-dem/ukip politicians military types and fash/conspiraloons etc were governing the country in an unstable coalition.
now imagine that areas controlled by the tories were saying that they don't recognise the authority of the government, that it's a fascist state, pointing to all the UKIP/BNP etc types involved, also saying that anyone who supported these protests were fascists. imagine that wycombe district council was to say that high wycombe is now going to be the "independent state of high wycombe" because the UK now is a "fascist state" and must be opposed, they walk into government buildings that they formerly lost, very very quickly the various factions would start killing each other and people would be forced into picking a side even if they hated both of them.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
ffy.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
teqniq
DisMembered
Wouldn't it be more appropriate these days to say corporate entities?what, and the tories wouldn't be backed by foreign powers?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
We've (if you mean the UK) never needed one. We've always been able to run the Nazis, neo-Nazis and fascists off of our streets, however much the criminal justice system has turned a blind eye to their actions, and a beady eye on ours.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Piped up the plastic anti-fascist.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Because while our state is run by cunts, they know what degree of cuntitude they can get away with.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
If it was a troop copter, then the only weapons it has aren't pilot-deployable, they're manned by gunners.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yeah, fortunatly they can climb back into those helicopter gunships soon and blast a few guided missiles onto their own population. well fortunate that
I doubt it. You're generally automatically stood-down after a crash until you're de-briefed, given a psych assessment and re-trained.
Contrary to what you appear to believe, military forces aren't keen to hand over the metaphorical keys to multi-million rouble-value pieces of equipment to people who may be suffering peri and/or post-traumatic stress.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Most likely using their expensive visual recording equipment for surveillance and intel-gathering. If you've got an ultra-high def camera on board, then why wouldn't you be tasked to buzz concentrations of people so that military and/or civil intelligence can analyse who is where?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
What's the bet that this anti neo nazi law will just be used to silence critics of anything putin dies in Ukraine? After all it wouldn't be the first time governments have used laws against something everyone is against like terrorism to criminalise protests and shut people up would it?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Targeting in that context would probably mean reconaissance in order to identify targets, and would include taking footage of the surrounding area. If you're going to blow something up, you don't send a single gunship, you send at least one (usually two) others to provide flanking air cover for when hell breaks loose on the ground (as it inevitably does).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Oh come on, is that the best you can do, plasticman?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Wait, wait, I know this one. . .
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Possibly not bar mitzvahs, though.
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