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Ukraine

Spanky Longhorn said:
Can you provide evidence that they may be?
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I've had views on my blog from Rwanda and the Philippines despite never mentioning those countries, and this forum has been around a lot longer and has far more views, this forum is first on google search results for quite a few politically related topics, its defo not a ridiculous idea that people in Kiev etc are reading it.
 
frogwoman said:
I've had views on my blog from Rwanda and the Philippines despite never mentioning those countries, and this forum has been around a lot longer and has far more views, this forum is first on google search results for quite a few politically related topics, its defo not a ridiculous idea that people in Kiev etc are reading it.
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Even if they are (and I don't accept that and don't accept you're providing any evidence otherwise) reading this I'm sorry but it's very unlikely that what is discussed on an obscure message board even most British Lefties haven't heard of is going to have much influence in Ukraine
 
classicdish said:
I was replying to "The people in the helicopter are on the same side as the murdering fascist cunts that carried out that atrocity" and pointing out that there may well be many members of the Ukrainian armed forces that do not share any motivations or political beliefs with the people who set fire to the building in Odessa.

Keeping a country united is ultimately best done politically and finding peace is also best done by finding a political solution, but once people have taken up arms it isn't always obvious how far either side should simply back down and 'roll over'. At least two "sides" are demanding votes (eg referenda, presidential elections) and are claiming political legitimacy for themselves.

I really hope that there is some kind of political settlement rather than a bloodbath, based on the Ukrainian public voting for various options not on people shooting at each other.

In this context I don't see how labelling all Ukranian soldiers as fascists is either accurate or useful.
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Fair enough.
Concerning the last point: "I don't see how labelling all Ukranian soldiers as fascists is either accurate or useful".
I see your point. I have a very close family friend who was sent to NI after joining the british army - both parents irish. Fucked him up good and proper.
But, looking at the chain of command in kiew, it's a bit different with now. With Parubiy commanding the national security and defence council since 2 months, he's installed conscription and now sending in the army to combat his very own population that are resisting (calling for a referendum) against his coup government. This is fucking scary. Very fucking scary!
Right now, if any one concerned about fascism were to run a quick risk assessment of the situation in Ukraine (and it is, admittedly, very complex), you'd be seeing this chain of command, that goes right to the very top, as the one risk to prioretise above others.
Micro analysing a couple of russian imperialist flags dotted around may help us understand some isolated splinter groups that need outing but, it looks to me that some people aren't seeing the wood through the trees here.
 
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pocketscience said:
Fair enough.
Concerning the last point: "I don't see how labelling all Ukranian soldiers as fascists is either accurate or useful".
I see your point. I have a very close family friend who was sent to NI after joining the british army - both parents irish. Fucked him up good and proper.
But, looking at the chain of command in kiew, it's a bit different with now. With Parubiy commanding the national security and defence council since 2 months, he's installed conscription and now sending in the army to combat his very own population that are resisting (calling for a referendum) his coup government. This is fucking scary. Very fucking scary!
Right now, if any one concerned about fascism were to run a quick risk assessment of the situation in Ukraine (and it is, admittedly, very complex), you'd be seeing this chain of command right to the top as the one risk to prioretise above others.
Micro analysing a couple of russian imperialist fags dotted around may help us understand some isolated splinter groups that need outing but, I't looks to me that some people aren't seeing the wood through the trees.
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You were talking about the Kiev government locking up dissenters and the impact this might have on the information that gets out before. Have you considered that, especially after quite a serious problem with defection (we don't know quite the extent of it but I think we can all agree it's happened on a significant scale), the information members of the Ukrainian army are receiving might not be 100% objective - they're probably being told - and believe - they're going after Russian special forces or something. In fact I'd shit a goat if they weren't.
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
Even if they are (and I don't accept that and don't accept you're providing any evidence otherwise) reading this I'm sorry but it's very unlikely that what is discussed on an obscure message board even most British Lefties haven't heard of is going to have much influence in Ukraine
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Oh yeah I know but there's enough bullshit our there by 'anti fascists' elsewhere it's a good chance somebody will have seen that sort of shit, seen the statements by people in Germany etc saying solidaity with odessa but not mentioning russia etc, especially if they are starting to become politically active
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
Even if they are (and I don't accept that and don't accept you're providing any evidence otherwise) reading this I'm sorry but it's very unlikely that what is discussed on an obscure message board even most British Lefties haven't heard of is going to have much influence in Ukraine
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Even if Urban is completely unread in Ukraine, and has no influence outside leftie circles in the U.K., it's surely still worth trying to raise the level of discussion on this thread beyond "fascists - antifascists", "good guys - bad guys" ?
 
SpineyNorman said:
You were talking about the Kiev government locking up dissenters and the impact this might have on the information that gets out before. Have you considered that, especially after quite a serious problem with defection (we don't know quite the extent of it but I think we can all agree it's happened on a significant scale), the information members of the Ukrainian army are receiving might not be 100% objective - they're probably being told - and believe - they're going after Russian special forces or something. In fact I'd shit a goat if they weren't.
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Sure I've considered that. Especially when you look who's behind them... the absolute masters of that game.
I wonder how many younguns sent to Iraq by the US believed it was all about freedom. I doubt many of them think it now though.
 
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The idea of the Ukrainian protesters etc all being fash is something that has been believed lot wider than urban though
 
DotCommunist said:
Imperial Tobacco
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Smoking-Storm-Trooper.jpg
 
Some stuffs:

Autonomous Workers Union-Kiev Statement on the Odessa Tragedy

Instead of taking a united stance against the neoliberal policies of the government, proletarians are busy fighting each other for the interests of various bourgeois cliques.

The final result of such policies will be a civil war in Ukraine, which will mean an ultimate catastrophe for the working class. We are not pacifists and will be at the side of the working class whenever it fights against the bourgeoisie, no matter what forms this fight takes — but this is not the case in Ukraine nowadays. The disoriented and weak proletariat will be busy engaging in self-destruction; the outcomes will be drastic fall of life standards, rise of unemployment and criminal activities, and loss of huge number of lives. All prospects of working-class self-organization and mobilization will be buried for some time.

We can see that this scenario is being pushed forward by the alliance of various right-wing groups, nazis, conservatives and Stalinists. It is important to understand that Antimaidan cannot be considered a “working-class social protest”: the typical demands of this movement in various towns are dictated by the most reactionary clerical conservatives (abolition of electronic IDs because they include “the Number of the Beast”; banning of vaccination; etc.) and have little to do with the interests of workers.
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Darkness in May. A socialist eye-witness in Odessa

Who were the culprits in the Odessa tragedy? For me, the answer is clear – Russian fascists and the police.

Fascists, yes, fascists – and cut out your “But our grandfathers fought…” already. You can wrap yourselves up from head to toe in St George’s ribbons [a symbol of military prowess in Russia] – you are still fascists. Your deeds speak for themselves. The radicals from the pro-Russian camp marched to the city centre with one aim – to beat up, or maybe even to kill, people.
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No-one wants to die: After Odessa, “remaining human” as a political programme.

But whatever might have been the initial intention of whoever organised the Odessa tragedy, there will be – or, more likely, already is – another result: the logic of civil war has been let loose, and it is now almost impossible to stop it. For the last month – with its expectation of military operations, occupation of buildings, hostage taking, local skirmishes in Donbass – many people nonetheless retained the timid hope that the whole process was being managed somehow by somebody, and that that meant that it could be stopped. The principal basis for such expectations was not only the will of Putin, the western powers or the Kiev government – but the fact that the majority of Ukrainians were simply not prepared to kill each other.

But we need to remember from the not-so-distant history of the 1990s that feeling of that awful crossing-over of a border: friendly neighbours, “soviet people”, who over decades had forgotten how to divide each other into “enemies” and “friends”, suddenly, within a few days, lose any human characteristics and become absolute beasts, the possible existence of which was known only from patriotic films about the fascist invasion.
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(Quotes chosen to reflect the articles contents - not endorsement).
 
classicdish said:
Using missiles, rockets, artillery, bombs etc is very relevant to whether the level of force being used is proportionate and discriminating. Ukraine has the hardware to completely flatten the anti-Maiden HQ buildings if it chose to but it obviously doesn't want to do so.

Out of interest, if someone is part of a 'force' (ie an armed combatant) then are they really a 'civilian'? If they aren't armed combatants then how are they part of a 'force'?
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TBH considering that the anti-Maiden/pro-Russian/Russian gang have been using some quite sophisticated weaponry including anti-aircraft missiles (that they apparently looted from village police stations) the Kiev gang have been quite careful and soft in their approach.
 
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