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Ukraine

I already said that it was fucking horrible I even had a go at the BBC for their propaganda about United Ukraine supporters
 
frogwoman said:
I already said that it was fucking horrible I even had a go at the BBC for their propaganda about United Ukraine supporters
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You didn't do it forcefully enough though - no exclamation marks on the end of it and you didn't point out how its fascist attackers were fascists and its antifascist victims were antifascists under attack from fascists. You need to do the antifascism like sunny jim if you want to be taken seriously round these parts.
 
The Jews have the right to defend themselves against their enemies, said anti-fascists in December 2008. Don't you agree? What's wrong with you you nazi piece of shit?
 
sunny jim said:
How about some condemnation of the torching of the Trade Union building? The people in the helicopter are on the same side as the murdering fascist cunts that carried out that atrocity so obviously I'll lose no sleep if they come a croper.
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Maybe there are members of the Ukrainian military who want to keep Ukraine united and want to see peace? Maybe the people who set fire to the building in Odessa want to start a war and want to see Ukraine divided? Maybe they are not on the same "side" at all?
 
SpineyNorman said:
The reality is that none of us actually know how much weight they carry on the anti-Kiev side - we know more about the pro-Kiev side but still not enough. That's why I think doing the kind of stuff seventh bullet has been doing - serious research that informs us of stuff we didn't know about before - would be a lot better than making confident declarations about differences in magnitude ...)
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You missing the point.
If no one knows what's going on then it won't help seventh bullet much if the government are locking people up for opposing them. At some point he'll only have their word to go on..
 
pocketscience said:
You missing the point.
If no one knows what's going on then it won't help seventh bullet much if the government are locking people up for opposing them. At some point he'll only have their word to go on..
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We know plenty about Russia, Israel, north Korea etc.
 
pocketscience said:
You missing the point.
If no one knows what's going on then it won't help seventh bullet much if the government are locking people up for opposing them. At some point he'll only have their word to go on..
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They won't lock up everyone who opposes them because they can't, for both practical and political reasons - surely you recognise this? even the original fascists - who were far better organised and ruthless than this bunch, who are mere amateurs in comparison, and had far more resources at their disposal - never came close to managing it. And even if they had done that wouldn't have hindered his research because most of it was historical. Besides, saying fascist a lot on the internet won't stop people being locked up so our time is still better spent trying to figure out what's actually going off rather than picking a side, sticking with it and becoming amusingly abusive when the antifascist credentials of that side are called into question (that bit's not you to be fair).
 
seventh bullet said:
I should have looked at all the photos posted on his VK page. There are loads in his OD album, but not sure if the people in them (including the march you refer to) are his fellow Black Hundred mates or locals. It looks like he was welcome at their tent, if not the wider camp.

VkwAvaX2-C0.jpg


His LiveJournal account. It appears he wasn't happy about 'Jews' at the camp.

378869_900.jpg


Does anyone know much about what org that flag belongs to? Jewish Insurgent Army. The one on the left says Russia Protect/s. Was it an anti-Semitic insult and he was too thick to get it? Or something else?
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Could just be worried Jewish locals, not all of the people there are going to be fash (as in the maidan)

Bit more research needed I think
 
classicdish said:
Maybe there are members of the Ukrainian military who want to keep Ukraine united and want to see peace? Maybe the people who set fire to the building in Odessa want to start a war and want to see Ukraine divided? Maybe they are not on the same "side" at all?
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People here have been predicting the chances of civil war and a devided Ukraine since the violence started on Maiden. De-escalations were offered but the protesters in Kiev did'nt let up.
Luckily for Svoboda and RS the military didn't "target" maidan square with helicopter gunships when they were bumrushing the peaceful protests to overthrow a democratically elected government. Why do you think the military have suddenly decided to get their toys out now?
 
SpineyNorman said:
They won't lock up everyone who opposes them because they can't, for both practical and political reasons - surely you recognise this? even the original fascists - who were far better organised and ruthless than this bunch, who are mere amateurs in comparison, and had far more resources at their disposal - never came close to managing it. And even if they had done that wouldn't have hindered his research because most of it was historical. Besides, saying fascist a lot on the internet won't stop people being locked up so our time is still better spent trying to figure out what's actually going off rather than picking a side, sticking with it and becoming amusingly abusive when the antifascist credentials of that side are called into question (that bit's not you to be fair).
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surely the solution here is to work out which side has the largest number of most fervent fascists and oppose them. Logic.
 
SpineyNorman said:
They won't lock up everyone who opposes them because they can't, for both practical and political reasons - surely you recognise this? even the original fascists - who were far better organised and ruthless than this bunch, who are mere amateurs in comparison, and had far more resources at their disposal - never came close to managing it. And even if they had done that wouldn't have hindered his research because most of it was historical. Besides, saying fascist a lot on the internet won't stop people being locked up so our time is still better spent trying to figure out what's actually going off rather than picking a side, sticking with it and becoming amusingly abusive when the antifascist credentials of that side are called into question (that bit's not you to be fair).
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OK chief. So as long as we can research it , then it's fine what the gov are doing. got it.
 
pocketscience said:
People here have been predicting the chances of civil war and a devided Ukraine since the violence started on Maiden. De-escalations were offered but the protesters in Kiev did'nt let up.
Luckily for Svoboda and RS the military didn't "target" maidan square with helicopter gunships when they were bumrushing the peaceful protests to overthrow a democratically elected government. Why do you think the military have suddenly decided to get their toys out now?
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Svoboda and the right sector aren't the only ones who're lucky that didn't happen though are they? I imagine there would have been more innocent deaths than fascist ones. Do we have any evidence that Kiev have targeted the anti-maidan 'side' with helecopter gunships? In other words, do we know the choppers were there to fire on people rather than, say, surveylance or transportation? Genuine question - I have no idea.
 
frogwoman said:
Did he say that?
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Of course I did - that's precisely what I said. To the letter. Just reading my own post back, I must also have supported Mussolini and Hitler cos I said they didn't manage to imprison all dissenters either. I was surprised to discover that cos I always thought I detested them but I guess I am a nazi apologist so it didn't ought to have been a surprise really.
 
SpineyNorman said:
Svoboda and the right sector aren't the only ones who're lucky that didn't happen though are they? I imagine there would have been more innocent deaths than fascist ones. Do we have any evidence that Kiev have targeted the anti-maidan 'side' with helecopter gunships? In other words, do we know the choppers were there to fire on people rather than, say, surveylance or transportation? Genuine question - I have no idea.
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They're helicopter gunships... Choppers just sounds to cute.
anyway, see the link I posted to the ukrainian defence ministry who admited "targetting".
in their next statement they talked of 30 deaths
 
frogwoman said:
Other people read this thread you know. Millions of people read this forum from other countries.
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Totally agree with your sentiments but I'm pretty sure it's not millions, or anywhere close.

I haven't joined in with condemning shit on this thread much because I got in early with my rant about oversimplification, dehumanisation, and labelling entire sides fascist. At the time I had no idea such phenomenon would affect this thread to the extent it has, but I've still little new to add to it.

Meanwhile even the american wrestling company WWE is rekindling the dodgy propaganda spirit of the cold war. They are building up a 'Bulgarian' wrestler who is managed by a 'Russian' woman, and on the pay-per-view last night she dedicated his match to Vladimir Putin, complete with Putin photo on the giant screen in the arena. In the past this sort of thing was done for both self-serving promotional reasons (cheap heat puts people in seats) and nation-serving reasons. Not that it ever went away with the end of the cold-war, just the targets changed for a while.
 
Re this Jewish insurgent army. What makes their presence (and the presence of Jewish people in the maidan and anti maidan protests generally) mean or imply that these groups have no fascists in it as some have been arguing? Is it not possible that groups using the Israeli flag as their symbol could also be fascists or racists (perhaps against Crimean Tatars or 'terrorists' Muslims from the Caucasus) the EDL have used that symbol on marches as have groups like Meir Kahane's JDL a fascist group banned by Israel (!!!) because it was so racist.

Are neo Nazis the only type of fascists there are now? Are there people using that symbol even Jewish, they might just really really hate Muslims for all we know?
 
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pocketscience said:
Seriously, do you think the gov sending in helicopter gunships and tanks is de-escalating the situation?
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I was replying to "The people in the helicopter are on the same side as the murdering fascist cunts that carried out that atrocity" and pointing out that there may well be many members of the Ukrainian armed forces that do not share any motivations or political beliefs with the people who set fire to the building in Odessa.

Keeping a country united is ultimately best done politically and finding peace is also best done by finding a political solution, but once people have taken up arms it isn't always obvious how far either side should simply back down and 'roll over'. At least two "sides" are demanding votes (eg referenda, presidential elections) and are claiming political legitimacy for themselves.

I really hope that there is some kind of political settlement rather than a bloodbath, based on the Ukrainian public voting for various options not on people shooting at each other.

In this context I don't see how labelling all Ukranian soldiers as fascists is either accurate or useful.
 
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