Ukraine
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sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Working class fascists maybe?
tony.c
Well-Known Member
From what I have read (mainly on here or on rt admittedly) I was under the impression that the march was almost entirely Right Sector with football Ultras who had been bussed in.
Some of the footage does show older women forming a chain to pass along lumps of rock, and I suppose they could well be locals.
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I know. Never mind about them.
tony.c
Well-Known Member
Not really much there though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This piece claims that the people who attacked the pro-march were identifiable by red armbands. After they shot at and killed people on that march they scarpered and didn't go to the building that was attacked. This, allied with the fact that some coppers had the same armband (as if the police and security services are not split down the middle as well - something we've been constantly reminded of on here) leads to the suggestion this was a pro-kiev provocation. So, presumably something like pictures of people in the building wearing those same red armbands and attacking those trying to defend them would rather damage - in fact, probably fatally undermine - the suggestion of a provocation?
classicdish
Well-Known Member
I can't see where on that page is says "...Several thousand supporters of a united Ukraine..." etc
tony.c
Well-Known Member
I wasn't really going by the red armbands, though I would think that the shooters with red armbands could have gone in to the Trade Union building too, even if they were agent provocateurs.
I was more influenced by the footage of what looked like a senior police officer seemingly giving them instructions. I have looked at the videos on the rt piece I have linked, and it isn't included. It is shown on the live news feed on the rt.com site.
I was more influenced by the footage of what looked like a senior police officer seemingly giving them instructions. I have looked at the videos on the rt piece I have linked, and it isn't included. It is shown on the live news feed on the rt.com site.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The piece you linked to hinges on that fact that these people - with police help - attacked the other march then disappeared. That they disappeared and didn't turn up at the attacked building seems now to be false. That the police helped them in their original attack is clearly true but is simply not evidence that they were working together for pro-ukranian ends a) it could simply mean that a) the police are split and some support the pro-Russians (as we are told every few days on here) and b) the later appearance of the red bands suggests that these actually were pro-russians, helped by pro-russian police. To suggest otherwise requires every single copper on duty that day to be militantly pro-ukranian and prepared to help launch an armed attack on the people they're supposed to be supporting, that would in all likelihood result in deaths on their side. Does anyone think that's a likely scenario? If so, on what basis? One more likely than the picture of pro-russians working together on the same basis that they have been doing in other cities across the south and east of the region?
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
It definitely did before cos I read it and had a little chuckle at it. It was updated at 3.11 today so my guess is they got complaints or something and edited it out.
tony.c
Well-Known Member
@ butchersapron
Yes that is what that article suggests. I posted it after I had seen a 'live' (looped) news report on rt.com at 9am. I thought it contained the footage that they were reporting on then - including the footage of the senior cop talking to the guys with red armbands. The article I posted doesn't contain that footage, and also makes the claim that the red armbands didn't go into the TU building. I don't think that was in the news report at 9am. I have gone back to the rt.com site to see if I could get a link to the original footage I saw at 9am, but it is not on at the moment. May be repeated again on the hourly news report as they seem to repeat the news items.
Edit: And as for the shootings resulting in deaths on their own side, isn't that what agent provocateurs do sometimes? And it wouldn't have needed every single policeman to know what was happening. The majority just do as they are ordered by senior officers.
Yes that is what that article suggests. I posted it after I had seen a 'live' (looped) news report on rt.com at 9am. I thought it contained the footage that they were reporting on then - including the footage of the senior cop talking to the guys with red armbands. The article I posted doesn't contain that footage, and also makes the claim that the red armbands didn't go into the TU building. I don't think that was in the news report at 9am. I have gone back to the rt.com site to see if I could get a link to the original footage I saw at 9am, but it is not on at the moment. May be repeated again on the hourly news report as they seem to repeat the news items.
Edit: And as for the shootings resulting in deaths on their own side, isn't that what agent provocateurs do sometimes? And it wouldn't have needed every single policeman to know what was happening. The majority just do as they are ordered by senior officers.
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tony.c
Well-Known Member
Yes I saw that too, and when I went back to quote it, it had gone.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Here's all the changes to that BBC article.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
wouldn't occam's razor suggest that if the march was attacked by people in red arm bands and the buildings those attacked targeted had people wearning red arm bands in it they were probably the same people and that's why it was attacked? And that given that we know the police etc are split, especially in these areas, it's perfectly possible that anti-Kiev police attacked the march and pro-Kiev police helped coordinate the revenge attack?
Seems more plausible to me than a conspiracy to provoke that would have put the lives of the conspirators in the building in grave danger.
Seems more plausible to me than a conspiracy to provoke that would have put the lives of the conspirators in the building in grave danger.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
cheers. looks like it was edited out at 10.30 today
tony.c
Well-Known Member
@ SpineyNorman yes that's a real possibility too.
Though it seems from BA's pictures that the red armband shooters inside the TU building had gone to the roof which was probably the safest place (and the best place to shoot from), which someone who was trained would have done.
Might be trained by Moscow or Kiev I suppose.
I think the rt report was suggesting that they weren't expecting the response from the Right/Ultra march to be so ferocious or deadly.
Though it seems from BA's pictures that the red armband shooters inside the TU building had gone to the roof which was probably the safest place (and the best place to shoot from), which someone who was trained would have done.
Might be trained by Moscow or Kiev I suppose.
I think the rt report was suggesting that they weren't expecting the response from the Right/Ultra march to be so ferocious or deadly.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
seventh bullet, much respect for this investigation & find. I'll bow to this as irrefutable that extreme right wingers have been involved in the anti maiden at odessa.
I've looked at those posts on VK (seems he's only been a member there since the end of April and only has one freind / follower there (?)...
Further research on him shows he's since left Ukraine (I think it's the same cunt but google spurts out different gramatical names like Raevkogo, Raevskii, etc - certainly resembles hime though:
http://www.mfs-theothernews.com/2014/03/russian-citizen-anton-raevskogo-black.html
Check out those tatoos!
According to the article linked above - besides the "Blut & Boden" (Blood & Earthhe also has swastika and hitler portrait tats...
Even more so now, I find it utterly bizzare that this group that he seems to represent are shoulder to shoulder with a group holding a banner that shows a strangled eagle/swastika?
According to that article he was expelled from Ukraine by the SBU but then he goes on to say (in the following VK link you provided) that he left of his own accord.
he also mentioned that the participants of the Anti Maiden actuall asked him to leave!!!!On his VK page:
My suspicion is this piece of shit has tried to gatecrash the Anti Maiden in odessa (maybe even OD).
He dos't seem to like Anton Davidchenko much (one of the main organisers of Odessa Anti Maiden - sitting in Jail since the end of March) who I suspect was instrumental in him being asked to leave the camp.
I have only focussed on Odesskaya Druzhina because of the questioning of their banner (and its colours, lol) on Saturday, a group I had not been aware of before then, or events generally in Odessa. Sure, it's not good to extrapolate based on the involvement of this dickhead and the composition of the wider destroyed camp (the OD tent was one of several), or the relationship between the militia and Raevsky's Black Hundred organisation from St Petersburg. Looking at the videos and photos of the OD tent, it looks like it was feeble in terms of the members defending the camp.
Again, we need more info on the OD's relationship with Slavic Unity. It seems to be a small-scale, largely insignificant outfit but that 2011 racist demonstration they participated in and the several 'Russian Marches' they've organised in that city over the years should give you some indication of what they're about. Then there's OD's relationship with other armed groups in Odessa and beyond, but with Raevsky's link it''s flagged as dodgy, even if it was maybe just him paying a visit that turned out to be unwanted (at the camp at least). As for its wider influence/significance... I don't think all pro-Russians involved in the big street battle on the day the camp was attacked are fascists or were fascist-led.
Here he is in Odessa, fourth from the right, wearing the black cap. Who those other men are and what group/s they belong to...
tony.c
Well-Known Member
Just watched the 5pm rt news on tv and online, which aren't the same. The report about the Odessa shooters being possibly provocateurs working with the police is on at about 7 or 8 minutes into the programs. The footage of the police officer talking to the red armbands is apparently from the Russia One tv channel, which is probably why it is not included in the article I posted. On the two news reports it didn't say that the shooters had not gone into the TU building as it does on the article I posted, so that must have been added by the person who prepared the written article.
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
classicdish
Well-Known Member
Talk about 'mix and match'
Red armband
Ukraine colours on one side
Russian colours on the other
Red armband
Ukraine colours on one side
Russian colours on the other
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Talk about 'mix and match'
Red armband
Ukraine colours on one side
Russian colours on the other
Could mean anything. Here's a loyalist mural depicting both the UDR and Cu Chulain (the latter usually only claimed by nationalists and republicans):
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Come on this is fucking disgusting. Celebrating soldiers deaths is this really where we have ended up?
Other people read this thread you know. Millions of people read this forum from other countries.
Imagine you are from Kiev, you know people who was in the maidan, you have relatives in the Ukrainian army, maybe you even know people who were killed in the protests. 100 people get killed in the maidan, they would have had friends and family, perhaps some of those were sympathetic to right sector and other groups, then they see the brutality of the state, they see how racist their 'comrades' were with the Jews and others at the maidan protests, they start to reject nationalism etc.
How exactly are you gonna react when you see self proclaimed anti fascists cheering on people shooting down soldiers helicopters and calling you and your dead mates scum for protesting against the government.you think all squaddies support the government? You think economic coercion in a country like Ukraine with its poverty and unemployment doesn't play a role like it does here? You think ukrainian soldiers are all right sector fash? Listen to yourselves.this isn't anti fascism. This is something else.
You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. I am fucking glad you lot aren't ever going to have any real power because I dread to think we would end up.
A war against terrorism - great, everyone's against that, here's a gun go and do it.
Other people read this thread you know. Millions of people read this forum from other countries.
Imagine you are from Kiev, you know people who was in the maidan, you have relatives in the Ukrainian army, maybe you even know people who were killed in the protests. 100 people get killed in the maidan, they would have had friends and family, perhaps some of those were sympathetic to right sector and other groups, then they see the brutality of the state, they see how racist their 'comrades' were with the Jews and others at the maidan protests, they start to reject nationalism etc.
How exactly are you gonna react when you see self proclaimed anti fascists cheering on people shooting down soldiers helicopters and calling you and your dead mates scum for protesting against the government.you think all squaddies support the government? You think economic coercion in a country like Ukraine with its poverty and unemployment doesn't play a role like it does here? You think ukrainian soldiers are all right sector fash? Listen to yourselves.this isn't anti fascism. This is something else.
You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. I am fucking glad you lot aren't ever going to have any real power because I dread to think we would end up.
A war against terrorism - great, everyone's against that, here's a gun go and do it.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Coppers defecting in Odessa:
eta: reportedly during the protest outside the policestation to release the anti gov people.
eta: reportedly during the protest outside the policestation to release the anti gov people.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Spot on, froggy. Top post.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
If we accept as likely (as I do) that Urban is widely-read and influential enough to have brought the far-right/neo-Nazi presence in the Maiden protests to the attention of the main stream media (I consider it quite possible that the belated mention of these elements, in e.g. the Graun and BBC, is down to some of their journos reading Urban, and this thread in particular) - then we should we not also accept that as widely-read as Urban is, this means it is being viewed by people in Ukraine? Non-fascist Maidan/pro-Kiev people being called fash scum etc - how will they react? It may IMHO quite likely drive them towards Right Sektor etc.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Fuck you, you piece of shit. How about some condemnation for the attack on the Trade Unions building? Seriously, shit off you despicable fuckwit.
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