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Ukraine

frogwoman said:
That's an interesting point....dunno tbh...

I don't know if I would read into anything yet, admittedly it needs a lot more investigation but from the posts I have read on fascist websites supporting neither side in favour of 'white unity' is a minority opinion, a lot of them expressed frustration that the majority of fash were supporting Russian/Ukrainian nationalism rather than the unity of the Aryan race, I'm also not sure that the majority of the Ukrainian extreme right would accept the help of Russian nationalists given their extreme hatred of Russia. A lot of the Russian fash see the Maidan protesters as having been led by Jews etc and so its hard to see any sort of 'unity project' taking hold, I could be wrong though but I think that the majority of neo-nazis in Russia and Ukraine seem to hate each other so much anything on that basis would be very unlikely.

From what I know of the eastern European far right the Ukrainian fash would be far more likely to form alliances with say the Croatian or Polish fash and the Russian fash siding with Serbia and the like, I could be wrong on that though!

And with increased communication there are more trends towards 'internationalism' in the far right as strange as it may sound :hmm:

I watched a video about Nazis in Russia where they were holding training camps and other Nazis came to train there as well such as Germans etc, its not beyond the realms of possibility it would have included Ukrainian far righters as well.

Here it is if you are interested:

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/neonazisrussia/89907726

I do think that all these organizations have a number of extremely dangerous people attracted to violence who don't particularly care what 'side' they are on - certainly seems to be the case with that ruslan guy
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Nazis training in Russia. History repeats itself yet again!
 
goldenecitrone said:
Like this one. It could say anything at the top. Down with the Kiev junta, probably. Copycat cunts.

91939-004-E90A16AB.jpg
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I think you'll find that it says at the top "Against the Argentine Junta - 1982". ;)
 
frogwoman said:
Really? Not heard that before?

Did the original nsdap go to Russia then?
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A significant minority of their Brownshirts did, in order to get decent paramilitary training, at least until they were suppressed, as did the German military forces, as did elements of the armed SS, until Hitler totally abrogated the restrictions on German armed forces. Bracher mentions it in "The German Dictatorship".
 
frogwoman said:
Someone on fb was saying that they thought the story was faked.

Some people I usually respect coming out with utter shit over this.
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For some people, it's easier to follow a simple "good vs evil" narrative, than to follow a narrative where ambiguity pretty much inhabits every nook and cranny.
 
ViolentPanda said:
A significant minority of their Brownshirts did, in order to get decent paramilitary training, at least until they were suppressed, as did the German military forces, as did elements of the armed SS, until Hitler totally abrogated the restrictions on German armed forces. Bracher mentions it in "The German Dictatorship".
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How was this possible? Did they just sneak through the Russian border? How did the soviets justify it if they were let in?
 
frogwoman said:
How was this possible? Did they just sneak through the Russian border? How did the soviets justify it if they were let in?
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The Soviets justified it through the old "my enemy's enemy is my friend" schtick (bear in mind here the Kremlin's opinion of the SPD and the centre and right parties in Weimar), just as, post-'34, they justified cooperation with Hitler's regime. Plain old mid-term strategy.
 
ViolentPanda said:
"Blood and Soil". Old NSDAP slogan, variations of which crop up with just about every ultra-nationalist grouping in the west. Most hilarious when US fascists use it, given that they have no "soil" of their own.
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I recognise the background in that pic. He's standing in what is now called St. Petersburg, but used to "Gorod Geroi Leningrad", Hero City Leningrad.
 
ViolentPanda said:
A significant minority of their Brownshirts did, in order to get decent paramilitary training, at least until they were suppressed, as did the German military forces, as did elements of the armed SS, until Hitler totally abrogated the restrictions on German armed forces. Bracher mentions it in "The German Dictatorship".
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Hang on, was this part of the Weimar republic's links with the USSR for training?
 
By the way is it worth having another thread to discuss putin and the extreme right in Russia, the Russian state etc?
 
Idris2002 said:
Hang on, was this part of the Weimar republic's links with the USSR for training?
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Most of the battalion-scale military training was post-34, IIRC) although the Weimar govt did send "military advisers" (by their thousands) to supervise setting up modernised flight-training and mobile artillery facilities, with a quid pro quo in that elements of the German military got to train beyond the limits of what the Treaty of Versailles permitted, which meant that when Hitler abrogated the restrictions, the German armed forces had more trained pilots, tank-drivers and artillery specialists than it was actually permitted, but as they'd trained incognito...
 
Chomsky on Ukraine http://www.alternet.org/putins-take...cause-it-challenges-americas-global-dominance

I think that this is a good point, and one that I've repeatedly thought (what if something like this were happening in Mexico or Canada with Iranian or Russian support?)

The U.S. invasion of Indochina, like the invasion of Iraq, crossed no red lines, nor have many other U.S. depredations worldwide. To repeat the crucial point: Adversaries are sometimes permitted to have red lines, but at their borders, where America's red lines are also located. If an adversary has “expansionist ambitions in its own neighborhood,” crossing U.S. red lines, the world faces a crisis.
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This was on AFA Ireland's facebook page and the 'we' is obviously AFA Ireland.


A statement from AFA Stockholm on the recent events in Odessa, Ukraine which we support:

"On May 2, a large group of Ukrainian fascists from all over the country were bussed into the city of Odessa. They used the date of a football match to bring a wide range of fascists together, from right wing-football fans to the armed paramilitary forces of the ‘Right Sector’. Approximately 1 000 fascists gathered at the ‘Sobornaya’ square, soon starting to attack local residents, targeting mainly the activists of the socialist movements opposed to the Kiev junta.

A group of locals (200-250 people) tried to confront and stop the fascists but were forced to retreat after being attacked with stones, bottles and also shot at with live ammo by the fascists. The fascist mob continued forward and attacked the tent camp of activists opposing the Kiev government and then went to set fire to the ground floor of the House of Trade-Unions. Witnesses saw people jumping from the second floor in attempts to escape the fire, only to be brutally beaten to death by the awaiting fascists on the ground. The fire spread rather quickly over the building and the fascists killed everyone they could get their hands on as they were trying to escape the flames, resulting in a total of 40 people dead. Among the victims is Andrew Brazhevsky a member of the ”Borotba” union and other anti-fascists and socialists.

The conflict taking place in Ukraine is not easy to understand as the mainstream media in Europe is only giving highly distorted and simplified reports depicting the situation as only something between the imperialist interests of Russia and the U.S. but two things are clear; the Kiev junta is actively supporting the right-wing paramilitary groups that are responsible for this horrific massacre and the fascists on the streets are not going to be stopped by neither NATO nor the EU (on the contrary, the fascists of Ukraine are actually being indirectly but undoubtedly supported by these capitalist institutions and many of its leading politicians, not the least Sweden’s Foreign minister Carl Bildt).

AFA Stockholm want to send our thoughts of solidarity to all the socialists and antifascists who were brutally murdered in the massacre of Odessa, as well as our deepest condolences to all of those who survived and are now living in grief of their lost comrades and friends.

Resistance against fascism as well as capitalist imperialism requires international solidarity.

Black is our sorrow – Red is our anger!"
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frogwoman said:
By the way is it worth having another thread to discuss putin and the extreme right in Russia, the Russian state etc?
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Funny you should mention that.

http://rt.com/news/line/2014-05-05/#60748

Putin signs law banning rehabilitation of Nazism


President Vladimir Putin has signed a law banning the rehabilitation of Nazism, the Kremlin press service said on Monday. The law, which introduces criminal punishment of up to five years in jail for the denial of facts set out by the post-war Nuremberg trials and for the dissemination of false information on the actions of the Soviet Union during the war, was earlier adopted by the parliament. Publicly desecrating symbols of Russian military glory or spreading information disrespecting public holidays related to the country’s defense will be punishable by a fine of up to 300,000 rubles, ($8,400) or community service for up to a year, RIA Novosti said.
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You plainly didn't read my posts where I said putin had massively clamped down on nazis in,Russia then.

Getting really sick of this anti fascist putin loving shit from people who should know fucking better. And I am not impressed by attempts to distort what I said
 
ViolentPanda said:
So, the "rehabilitation of Nazism" is banned in Russia. Germany, as I recall, has had a similar law for nigh on 70 years. Better late than never, I suppose.
Interesting that this law is also being used to stop any action that might be defined as denigration of the Soviet Union during the war, too.
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We haven't got the same law.
 
tony.c said:
I know RT news has it's own pro-Russia agenda, but they are making what looks like a credible case that the gunmen who fired on the pro-Kiev march, sparking the subsequent attack on the Trade Union building, were provocateurs acting in conjunction with the Odessa police.
http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/
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If you think a news a news source is credible then reference it. Please do not be cowed into prefixing your reference with "I know RT news has it's own pro-Russia agenda, but............. (followed by reference)".

It's rather like a closet racist saying: "I'm not a racist; BUT (followed by racist opinion). If you don't think a news source is credible then don't reference it.

As far as I'm concerned, it's okay to reference RT. In fact, I've have ... ooh...dare I say it....: even bought the T-shirt!
 
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Kesher said:
If you think a news a news source is credible then reference it. Please do not be cowed into prefixing you reference with "I know RT news has it's own pro-Russia agenda, but............. (followed by reference)".

It's rather like a closet racist saying: "I'm not a racist; BUT (followed by racist opinion). If you don't think a news source is credible then don't reference it.

As far as I'm concerned, it's okay to reference RT.
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Exactly, no one says "I know the BBC/Reuters/CNN/Guardian etc have their own agenda, but" even after knowing beardy man, false anti semetic flyers, the Maiden protests weren't made up of fascists (!) and many other lies about the Ukraine crisis are routinely disseminated by these news organisations
 
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Kesher said:
If you think a news a news source is credible then reference it. Please do not be cowed into prefixing your reference with "I know RT news has it's own pro-Russia agenda, but............. (followed by reference)".

It's rather like a closet racist saying: "I'm not a racist; BUT (followed by racist opinion). If you don't think a news source is credible then don't reference it.

As far as I'm concerned, it's okay to reference RT. What's more I've even bought the T-shirt.
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I don't think rt is a trustworthy source, when it comes to Ukraine I don't think that the BBC is either, if I see something on either of those I prefer to verify it elsewhere.
 
@ Kesher.
I prefaced my post like that because if I had just quoted the RT article some people would have said that it is a pro-Russia/pro-Putin mouthpiece.
 
I do, I wouldn't really reference BBC stuff on here, they were at it again today describing fash as 'supporters of a united Ukraine (some with masks and sticks)'
 
I do find the rt stuff a useful balance to bbc/itn/sky etc.
The article about the people shooting at the Right Sector/football ultras march being provocateurs working with the Odessa police, or possibly even police themselves, seemed more credible because of the footage of the police officer talking to them which I hadn't seen anywhere else.
 
Were all those people on the ultras march fash then? I'm sure that a lot of them were just football fans or worried locals, same as the other side.
 
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