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Totally "fash"ed out over the last couple of pages.
I'm not sure where the idea that the Odessa events began with the attack on the camp on the square. It's reported basically universally that they began out in the city when a pro-unity Maidan sided march met with, or rather was attacked by an anti-maidan group. The stronger Maidan claim was that it began with a man from their group, largely football ultras - that's acknowledged - being shot through the head. Which, from videos of firearms on the anti-Maidan side, seems not implausible.
But, not at all to get conspiratorial, it's serious, and grim - it seems to be more complex. Considering the entire basis for the tragedy was the street fighting...

The 'Russian' side, in the events that pumped-up the violence that ended in the huge fire, were firing from the police lines. The men in fatigues, with red bands, red-starred shields, and covered in St. George ribbons - classic 'Pro-Russians.' The police knew they were armed, they fired from alongside them.

1174870.jpg

1174874.jpg

http://echo.msk.ru/blog/echomsk/1313090-echo/

So what is this? And what precedent could it be setting? Just my-enemy's-enemy, tolerating it from fear of overwhelming odds? Or police units bringing 'turned' anti-Maidan associates and ex-colleages? The Odessian police did essentially nothing until the entire centre of the union building was alight. These are the men of the Ministry which announced almost immediately that the building's occupants set themselves on fire.
 
Voynich said:
Totally "fash"ed out over the last couple of pages.
I'm not sure where the idea that the Odessa events began with the attack on the camp on the square. It's reported basically universally that they began out in the city when a pro-unity Maidan sided march met with, or rather was attacked by an anti-maidan group. The stronger Maidan claim was that it began with a man from their group, largely football ultras - that's acknowledged - being shot through the head. Which, from videos of firearms on the anti-Maidan side, seems not implausible.
But, not at all to get conspiratorial, it's serious, and grim - it seems to be more complex. Considering the entire basis for the tragedy was the street fighting...

The 'Russian' side, in the events that pumped-up the violence that ended in the huge fire, were firing from the police lines. The men in fatigues, with red bands, red-starred shields, and covered in St. George ribbons - classic 'Pro-Russians.' The police knew they were armed, they fired from alongside them.

1174870.jpg

1174874.jpg

http://echo.msk.ru/blog/echomsk/1313090-echo/

So what is this? And what precedent could it be setting? Just my-enemy's-enemy, tolerating it from fear of overwhelming odds? Or police units bringing 'turned' anti-Maidan associates and ex-colleages? The Odessian police did essentially nothing until the entire centre of the union building was alight. These are the men of the Ministry which announced almost immediately that the building's occupants set themselves on fire.
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Yeah sorry, thanks for posting that and sorry for derailing the thread.
 
pocketscience said:
Again, thanks for the research and civil tone. It's what this thread deserves.
Altough I can see what you're getting at and respect the fact you've provided the most substantial evidence so far that exremist fascists are in involved in the odessa resistance movement, there are a still fair few asumptions in there (The organisation itself seems..., I suspect the militia..., I found looks pretty dodgy)

Sure, I saw it on the wiki liknk from DaairyQueen and the links to extreme right wing marches in mainland russia from frogwoman. Sorry but I still dont see the fact that that means DO are right wing extremists. Thats why I asked for the transation and context of the OD banner. Thanks for answering that. Don't you agree that only having Odinov as a solitary connecion is still a bit ambiguous?

I personally think more conclusive research is needed on Slavic Unity and their significance. The DO Group links (just through one operative) I find a bit of a far stretch.
At the moment, personally, I think it's worth flagging and monitoring these 2 groups in Odessa and the one in Donesk. But alarm bells? Everyone will have their own threashold of when to set the alarm bells off. Personally, in such a fucked up situation in Ukraine (if not the whole of Eastern Europe) I think orders of magnitude is an appropriate scale to do so. Comparing the importance of these groups to Svoboda and Right Sector could well be crying wolf. I may be wrong and will gladly eat humble pie if it turns out that they really exist as an extremist, right wing, fascist element of the ant-kiev government side and, if they should end up with as much sway of public opinion and power than Svoboda/RS have via the coup gov.
Click to expand...

Yes, I already provided warnings with regard to the information posted, that it is not without the potential for mistakes as well as wrong assumptions to be made. My use of 'seems' and 'suspect' etc reflects that, rather than presenting the admittedly superficial information gathered so far as concrete evidence. Sure, when it comes to fascist influence or direction within OD (and I did say more digging needs to be done) the single link of Odinov is inadequate.

However, I did a little more digging on the Russian web, and it appears a Russian fascist named Anton Raevsky, belonging to a St Petersburg-based group called Chernaya Sotnya (the Black Hundreds) had recently been involved with OD. Several of his group, including himself, travelled to Ukraine to volunteer with the OD to help take on Right Sector and stayed at the OD camp on Kulikovo Field square.

53259.jpg


His own video from the camp back in March.



His organisation. Just normal folks, out celebrating with those colours again.

 
frogwoman said:
Why would anti fascists deface a memorial to victims of fascism?

It couldn't be because they're not anti fash at all, could it? There must be some other explanation. Maybe the people who put the memorial up were Zionists? Mentioning zionism usually tends to mean you aren't racist. That must be it.
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or the very same people who originally defaced it with their own insignia, and which was widely publicised, came back and did it again and took a picture of it. And used that as propaganda against their opponents. Which is going on all over social media sites. If it was right wing Russian slogans itd be believable but that looks like a pretty blatant attempt at propaganda.

If they werent anti fascist at all then why even paint leftist slogans when theres plenty of russian fash ones to use ? Its completely daft, doesnt make any sense and your frankly scraping the barrel with that one. Its up there with the jews must register leaflets.

Unless youd like to defend that nonsense as true as well ?
 
ViolentPanda said:
If you're going to report, do it properly, please, and say "some German Antifascists", as the signatories to that declaration don't constitute the entirety of German Antifa, only about a quarter of it at best (disappointingly).
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well the anti Deutsch antifa contingent certainly havent signed up . Thank fuck .
 
ViolentPanda said:
I presume you mean "unambiguous", but have been reading so many wikipedia pages, that "disambiguated" has lodged in your mind.
That'd be, by the way, the symbols that turned up toward the end of the protests (before the snipers etc), would it?
Click to expand...

horseshit. They were there from the beginning of the squares occupation . From when the Lenin statue was felled, thats when I first spotted them .

absolute horseshit
 
frogwoman said:
DSC_0848.jpg


Another celebration. How do you think the flag in the middle got into the middle of this happy event? Maybe its an ancient sign of good luck?
Click to expand...


except thats plainly not a flag, is it ? Its actually a much larger banner we can only see a corner of from behind. Theres plainly something else on it we cant see . It can just as easily be, and I suggest is much more likely to be, an anti nazi banner making a comment about the Kiev junta.

such as this one, which if we only looked at the top right hand corner , which is all we can see in your pic, we would get a very different message from

0,,16352122_404,00.jpg
 
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Casually Red said:
except thats plainly not a flag, is it ? Its actually a much larger banner we can only see a corner of from behind. Theres plainly something else on it we cant see . It can just as easily be, and I suggest is much more likely to be, an anti nazi banner making a comment about the Kiev junta.
Click to expand...

Except that it's a pic from a nationalist march in Russia posted on another forum in 2011.
 
frogwoman said:
Why can't people admit that there are fascists on both sides? I genuinely don't get it.
Click to expand...


it was already discussed by me and another few posters some time back that were bound to be fascists on both sides. That extreme right wing politics certainly isnt a problem confined to the pro Kiev junta and its supporters and exists among Russians as well. And it was also confidently predicted that any shred of its existence on the other side no matter how small would be used and hyped up out of all proportion by supporters of the coup on here to demonise the legitmate oposition to an illegimitmate western sponsored coup that incorporates and empowers unapologetic neo nazis at a governmental and military level.

Which it has been.

Some of the pics your posting have already been posted by others and discussed.
Youve also posted pictures from around 20 years ago of Pavel Gubarov, suggesting hes a fascist in curent times . And have been asked to explain what his political alegiance is 20 years on as opposed to when the soviet union was breaking was up. Youve declined to do that, when your very well aware the Pavel Gubarov of today as opposed to 20 years ago is very much far left, anti revisionist, hardline socialist .
That leads me to the conclusion your intent on scraping the barrel in order to demonise opposition to a coup and a junta. Because that goes beyond balanced discussion and information and into the realm of disnformation.
 
'Show ignored content' lol.

Are you serious? As I posted at the time, the demo was a nationalist demo in 2011 in Russia !!
 
Casually Red said:
except thats plainly not a flag, is it ? Its actually a much larger banner we can only see a corner of from behind. Theres plainly something else on it we cant see . It can just as easily be, and I suggest is much more likely to be, an anti nazi banner making a comment about the Kiev junta.
Click to expand...

:D

Three years before the Kiev junta existed.
 
frogwoman said:
:D

Three years before the Kiev junta existed.
Click to expand...

wow, i didnt read back through the entire thread, big deal. there was me thinking thinking you were posting up pictures of the demonstrations against whats going on in Ukraine today. Instead your posting up pictures from years ago .

in russia
 
CR given your behaviour on other threads and your repeated postings about Jews, Argentinian dictatorship, torturers, rape and similar topics you are in no way in a position to be able to tell people what is fascism or accuse people of spreading disinformation. You are neither wanted or needed on here.
 
The irony is of course if CR was Ukrainian he'd be up to his neck in pravy sector giving it the bigun about Russian occupation supporting various 'anti communist' dictators and talking about the sovereignty of the Ukrainian people, justifying the Banderists involvement with the Nazis and other horrors

Look look, Dugin and his fash advising Putin and you're getting upset about colours on a flag. We sorted out those fascist Eurasianists in Odessa, its our right as sovereign nation, here's a video of those fascist separatists getting a kicking, glory to Ukraine etc. By the way those mujehaddin in Afghanistan, weren't they great, they sorted the Russian imperialists right out didn't they

And the Russians killed more people than Hitler you know
 
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Just found a subtle link between the Ukraine nationalists and the Russian far right, something I've always suspected especially as groups like Slavic Union was outlawed by the Kremlin and hiding out in Norway. Anyway not to give to much away as I don't want the pages I know of to be blocked by the users.

Anyway one user posted on the wall of an officer from Right Sectors page a Russian flag and above "wait for us and we will soon arrive" the users profile seems to be locked down solid apart from one slip up in Google's annoying metadata saves and it turns out he is from Saint Petersburg.

Obviously with such little information it's impossible to read into the situation, but it could be the first signs of a unity between Russia's far right dissident and Ukraine's far right.
 
Eastern-Odyssey said:
Just found a subtle link between the Ukraine nationalists and the Russian far right, something I've always suspected especially as groups like Slavic Union was outlawed by the Kremlin and hiding out in Norway. Anyway not to give to much away as I don't want the pages I know of to be blocked by the users.

Anyway one user posted on the wall of an officer from Right Sectors page a Russian flag and above "wait for us and we will soon arrive" the users profile seems to be locked down solid apart from one slip up in Google's annoying metadata saves and it turns out he is from Saint Petersburg.

Obviously with such little information it's impossible to read into the situation, but it could be the first signs of a unity between Russia's far right dissident and Ukraine's far right.
Click to expand...
Yeah I know - there are some who are looking for sort of Slavic far right 'unity'

Did you see this?
http://www.romea.cz/en/features-and...a-and-fascism-when-the-thief-cries-stop-thief

Posting it again because I strongly recommend people read it:

In addition to professional soldiers with experience of the wars in Chechnya now fighting for either side, there are also adventurers and vagabonds without any military discipline or experience. People are often more afraid of them than they are of the soldiers.

"Ruslan Mikeda, a volunteer guarding the barricade in front of an occupied police station, believes the pogrom in Slavyansk is completely in order," a reporter on the scene wrote for the online news server Worldcrunch. "People are coming to us and complaining about Gypsies. They want us to put things in order, to cleanse the town of the gypsies," said Mikeda, a former construction worker who has been out of a job for a year and a half.

Mikeda traveled to Kiev and joined the Right Sector because he wanted to acquire a weapon. He had no luck getting one there and claims to have come to the conclusion that the Kiev revolution is being managed by Jews.

He finally managed to get a weapon by joining the other side, a militia fighting against Kiev and for a free Republic of Donetsk. According to the author of the Worldcrunch report, aggressive anti-Semitism and xenophobia against Romani people were strongly evident from interviews with that militia and from the seditious signs on the barricades and on the walls of buildings there.

It seems that Fascism and nationalism are on the rise in both Russia and Ukraine. While information about fascisizing radicals in Ukraine has turned up rather often in the Czech media's reports about the events of February and March in Kiev, not many people in the Czech Republic know about the racially motivated murders and violence in Russia.
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In addition on the neo-nazi and virulently anti gay Occupy Pedophilia's vk pages in various ukrainian cities (that movement spread to ukraine from russia) lots of posts praising pravy sektor.

Some ultra nationalists in Moscow even protested against war with Ukraine, you can find details of it on the scumfront thread I mentioned before, I think that I posted the video on here

I think there's possibly a risk of overestimating the importance of these people in terms of what happens next, they're not the only thing driving events on the ground on either 'side'
 
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