Ukraine

[pocketscience]

The Odinov guy isn't masked in the second video. He's wearing a camouflage jacket with a black fleece collar and cap. I searched Odesskaya Druzhina and came across him. I then searched his name, saw a 2011 news article about a racist demonstration in Odessa by the Slavic Unity group he was/still is involved in and another group. Did some more searches of SU and got images of him on SU demonstrations in Odessa.

I could be wrong, but OD seem to have tried to emulate the Kiev fascists in setting up the small camp in Odessa (until it was destroyed in fighting very recently with many dead) to attract support and build a local movement. I would hazard a guess that the men and women making statements in the Crimea solidarity video are not fascists, just worried locals. The men in helmets and balaclavas, carrying sticks and shields on the other hand...

The organisation itself seems to have been formed as a pro-Russian militia to patrol and defend Odessa from Kiev's interference (including rival Right Sector thugs). Their wider aim? Separatism? I suspect the militia had set up the camp to attract wider pro-Russian support in the city by using the cover of an anti-fascist position with regard to the government in Kiev. Far-rightists acting as respectable defenders of ethnic Russian interests. Like I said, until yesterday I did not know much about this group, hadn't been paying attention to Odessa particularly, so I just spent a bit of time googling, looking at this particular group and even though it has been at a superficial level so far what I found looks pretty dodgy.

Again, thanks for the research and civil tone. It's what this thread deserves.
Altough I can see what you're getting at and respect the fact you've provided the most substantial evidence so far that exremist fascists are in involved in the odessa resistance movement, there are a still fair few asumptions in there (The organisation itself seems..., I suspect the militia..., I found looks pretty dodgy)

You must know by now that the old imperial colours are a pretty good signifier of ultranationalist/fascist groups in Russia itself.

Sure, I saw it on the wiki liknk from DaairyQueen and the links to extreme right wing marches in mainland russia from frogwoman. Sorry but I still dont see the fact that that means DO are right wing extremists. Thats why I asked for the transation and context of the OD banner. Thanks for answering that. Don't you agree that only having Odinov as a solitary connecion is still a bit ambiguous?

Alarm bells should be ringing when you see them. Be careful who you support.

I personally think more conclusive research is needed on Slavic Unity and their significance. The DO Group links (just through one operative) I find a bit of a far stretch.
At the moment, personally, I think it's worth flagging and monitoring these 2 groups in Odessa and the one in Donesk. But alarm bells? Everyone will have their own threashold of when to set the alarm bells off. Personally, in such a fucked up situation in Ukraine (if not the whole of Eastern Europe) I think orders of magnitude is an appropriate scale to do so. Comparing the importance of these groups to Svoboda and Right Sector could well be crying wolf. I may be wrong and will gladly eat humble pie if it turns out that they really exist as an extremist, right wing, fascist element of the ant-kiev government side and, if they should end up with as much sway of public opinion and power than Svoboda/RS have via the coup gov.

 

[frogwoman]

The links I posted weren't just from Russia.

Did you see the photo of 'Donetsk Republic' separatists posing with the banned neo Nazi group Obraz?

I also posted a video of Donetsk Republic separatists making Nazi salutes.

I've posted loads of pics from eastern Ukraine ffs.

 

[elbows]

the flag is that of the Peoples Republic of Odessa, nothing more. Fuck all to do with monarchism, fuck all to do with the right, fuck all to do with fascism. The colours are simply Russian ones. The resident anti fascist experts, Russian haters, and sneaking regarders for the junta have been talking a complete load of old bollocks about it and what it represents.

From the man who spent part of the Libyan uprising telling us how the anti-Gaddafi side were monarchists, because they were using a Libyan flag that came from an era of monarchy.

 

[pocketscience]

The links I posted weren't just from Russia.

Did you see the photo of 'Donetsk Republic' separatists posing with the banned neo Nazi group Obraz?

I also posted a video of Donetsk Republic separatists making Nazi salutes.

I've posted loads of pics from eastern Ukraine ffs.

I think it's worth flagging and monitoring these 2 groups in Odessa and the one in Donesk.

 

[frogwoman]

Dp

 

[frogwoman]

Fair play, sorry.

I just feel a bit annoyed because some people aren't bothering to read the stuff I posted and have even made up shit.

Its really really dangerous to equate anti fascism for support for the Russian state. You will end up driving opponents of these people into the far right ffs.

Why do you think that the right sector in Ukraine got the initial support they did? Through their willingness to fight the government, through the complete lack of a working class movement that is not tied to Russia and what are to them the symbols of Russian racism, imperialism and occupation (Lenin, hammers and sickles, etc) through the fact that they fought the police etc.

It was the same story in Moldova you had fascists in the forefront of a movement which occupied government buildings, threw documents out of windows etc. Not all of the people who supported that movement were fascists, not even most of them and many were violently opposed to fascism.

The Moldovan police who beat kids on those demonstrations to death and gave employers lists of gay employees and workers with HIV - anti fascists? What about the Russian Orthodox Church - anti fascist as well?

If this is anti fascism I don't want anything to do with it.

 

[frogwoman]

If you oppose fascism you fucking oppose it with no exceptions and no attempts to get out of it by saying that neo-nazi flags are just there for celebrations or any of the other crap that has been posted on this thread.

 

[frogwoman]

More here

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=802557&page=10

Holocaust memorial in Crimea defaced ... By 'anti fascists'

 

[frogwoman]

More here

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=802557&page=10

Holocaust memorial in Crimea defaced ... By 'anti fascists'

Why would anti fascists deface a memorial to victims of fascism?

It couldn't be because they're not anti fash at all, could it? There must be some other explanation. Maybe the people who put the memorial up were Zionists? Mentioning zionism usually tends to mean you aren't racist. That must be it.

 

[8ball]

Holocaust memorial in Crimea defaced ... By 'anti fascists'

Simultaneously bizzarre, depressing and confusing.

By the same token, can we necessarily assume everyone going around with fascist imagery is necessarily fash? I'm not too sure, the use of symbols by both sides seems chaotic in a way that seems to go beyond any disinformation for political reasons.

That said, I'm convinced there are proper fash types on both sides - I'd be interested to see what the more articulate fash on either side describe their justification and final goal as being.

 

[frogwoman]

Simultaneously bizzarre, depressing and confusing.

By the same token, can we necessarily assume everyone going around with fascist imagery is necessarily fash? I'm not too sure, the use of symbols by both sides seems chaotic in a way that seems to go beyond any disinformation for political reasons.

That said, I'm convinced there are proper fash types on both sides - I'd be interested to see what the more articulate fash on either side describe their justification and final goal as being.

Exactly.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe what's written on it would give us some historical context specific to odessa. Just a hunch.

It isn't, as seventh bullet said.

Flags can be wierd like that. I'm sure nobody in Italy gives a fuck about napoloen when they wave their tricolour

Possibly because there was no "Italy" in Napoleon's time, just a bunch if states, dukedoms etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Come on. The white power and SS symbols on maidan are way more disambiguous than that banner.

I presume you mean "unambiguous", but have been reading so many wikipedia pages, that "disambiguated" has lodged in your mind.
That'd be, by the way, the symbols that turned up toward the end of the protests (before the snipers etc), would it?

 

[frogwoman]

Simultaneously bizzarre, depressing and confusing.

By the same token, can we necessarily assume everyone going around with fascist imagery is necessarily fash? I'm not too sure, the use of symbols by both sides seems chaotic in a way that seems to go beyond any disinformation for political reasons.

That said, I'm convinced there are proper fash types on both sides - I'd be interested to see what the more articulate fash on either side describe their justification and final goal as being.

No we can't, especially on the Ukrainian side (much earlier in the thread someone posted something about how the insurgent army in Ukraine were seen as liberators by a much wider group of people than just fash, and that it was a relatively small group of these who assisted the Nazis and carried out atrocities) there are some people who will see such symbols as the ukrainian crest the red and black flag etc in terms of resistance to occupation etc.

In Moldova ideas such as reunifying Moldova with Romania etc have a much wider support than just fash. On a lot of demonstrations (russia too) you will see people who definitely aren't fash waving national flags etc whereas in similar demos in the UK you probably wouldn't see that.

However don't forget that most people in Ukraine suffered appallingly under the Nazis. Most people understand what swastikas, Wolf's hooks etc represent. I think it is safer to assume that most of the people using that more hardcore more obviously fascist stuff are fash or at least sympathetic to it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry, you've lost me.What does it tell you?

It tells me two very obvious things:
1) That if the graffiti sprang up toward the end of the occupation, then an inference might be drawn that rightist elements were Johnny-come-latelies to the Maidan.
2) That the graffiti might have been the work of provocateurs.

I hope that people (and Casually Red too) take note of the bolded "might", as I wouldn't like to see anyone make themselves look stupid by accusing me of supporting fascism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Funny choice of word that: "celebrating"

Only if you're a twat.
I chose celebrating (in quotes) because I find that sort of whipped-up public jingoism/faux -affection for monarchy extremely distasteful, and nothing to do with what you mention below.

From the same wiki page that DairyQueen and BA have refered to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_flags

 

[ViolentPanda]

I still haven't been convinced though - that's why I said (for me at least) the jury's out.
One reason is, I really wouldn't understand the logic of an extreme right wing group standing shoulder to shoulder with another bunch of people with a banner that shows a strangled eagle with a swastika or vice versa.

Have you taken the prevalence of anti-German sentiment in the FSU into account? Right-wing Russians, Ukrainians, uncle Tom Cobley and all might engage in neo-Nazism, but that doesn't mean they've forgotten what the Germans who wore the eagle and swastika did.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Could you clarify what you mean by 'an anti-Maidan force'?
Is it they are against the original anti-corruption protests, or against the pro-EU supporters, or against the Right Sector/fascist activists.
I am guessing that you are saying that it is the first, or the first and second. But not the third?

It could equally be all three, Tony, or any combination.
Part of the problem (IMO) is that people are looking for straightforward narratives (narratives that the media, whichever media, are only too willing to provide), when there is no straightforward narrative, and the whole thing is so crosscut with historical, political, cultural and religious cleavages and stumbling blocks that some people buy straight into those media narratives.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Groups having a party!

The sort of groups whose parties climax in oaths to murder reds and anarchists.
But at least they know how to celebrate, eh?

 

[dylanredefined]

Have you taken the prevalence of anti-German sentiment in the FSU into account? Right-wing Russians, Ukrainians, uncle Tom Cobley and all might engage in neo-Nazism, but that doesn't mean they've forgotten what the Germans who wore the eagle and swastika did.

Nazis and Communists both treated Ukrainians terribly. The Ukrainians I met just treated it as history.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Celebration

Even more nauseating when the fuckers are carrying ikons too.

 

[frogwoman]

I've only been having a peek at them today, and it's just what I've read on their own VK pages. OD members have been involved in street fights and stand offs with the third for quite some time, haven't they?


A vid in support of Crimea back in March from the Kulikovo Field square (scene of the fire yesterday) camp set up by OD as a place for organising and demonstrations.



coloured scum in my area) demonstration in Odessa back in 2011.

I just watched that middle video. I suggest others do too. There's a bloke holding up an antisemitic sign in it at 0.28.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nazis and Communists both treated Ukrainians terribly. The Ukrainians I met just treated it as history.

Yeah, I'm only making the point that it's possible for people to be hard right or even neo-Nazi, and still hate the original Nazis.

 

[8ball]

Part of the problem (IMO) is that people are looking for straightforward narratives (narratives that the media, whichever media, are only too willing to provide), when there is no straightforward narrative, and the whole thing is so crosscut with historical, political, cultural and religious cleavages and stumbling blocks that some people buy straight into those media narratives.

I'm certainly confused to fuck by the whole thing but the media narratives (on both sides) are so full of holes that they can only possibly work if you really want to believe them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, you're just doing an awful job of convincing me. Afterall, I'm only taking your own advice of not taking things at face value.

So you mean the crest?
Isn't that the Odessa coat of Arms?

Nope, the Odessa city coat of arms is the anchor on a red background, and a gold frame. The Odessa provincial coat of arms is the anchor on a blue background framed in red.
What's on those shields is the old imperial coat of arms for Odessa.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unfortunately pretty much par for the course among the middle-classes of the FSU.

 

[ViolentPanda]

German Antifa release statement condemning the fascist groups the Right Sector and Svoboda and the western governments collusion with them.




http://revolution-news.com/german-s...ian-antifa-actions-and-statement/#prettyPhoto

If you're going to report, do it properly, please, and say "some German Antifascists", as the signatories to that declaration don't constitute the entirety of German Antifa, only about a quarter of it at best (disappointingly).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, after what appears to have been a street battle involving pro-Russian fascists who had set up a camp outside that very building. Have you not been reading the last few pages? Your 'anti-fascism' involves supporting fascists against other fascists? Oh wait, RT is calling them 'anti-government activists.'

Jim's antifascism has always appeared to be about him getting to decide who is or isn't fascist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Another celebration. How do you think the flag in the middle got into the middle of this happy event? Maybe its an ancient sign of good luck?

Obviously brought along by BJP members who are lobbying for India to be part of a new Russian empire, froggie.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quite right jim, there is no ongoing connection between the past and the present.

History shows us nothing.