Ukraine

[pocketscience]

dp

 

[seventh bullet]

Odesskaya Druzhina says fuck all to me. I dont speek the lingo. That's why I asked for the translation. A bit of background would be good too.
But yeah sure, if they are indeed far-right then fuck 'em. Bunch of cunts simple as.
I still haven't been convinced though - that's why I said (for me at least) the jury's out.
One reason is, I really wouldn't understand the logic of an extreme right wing group standing shoulder to shoulder with another bunch of people with a banner that shows a strangled eagle with a swastika or vice versa.
Is it really a case of "our extreme right wing group's better than yours"?
I'd be the first to admit misjudgement of the whole situation if compelling evidence was provided but just 3 colours on that one single banner aren't doing it for me just yet.

I gave you a translation. Look them up. I did. Sure, there needs to be a bit more digging, but at the moment it looks like they're not my cup of balaclava-wearing, club-wielding tea.

And surely you must know what kind of groups in Russia use those colours?

 

[butchersapron]

Because nobody has provided compelling evidence that that's the case until now?

Have you been presented with compelling evidence? If so, what was your reaction? I've been posting about the far right support for the russian state for pages now.

 

[butchersapron]

I gave you a translation. Look them up. I did. Sure, there needs to be a bit more digging, but at the moment it looks like they're not my cup of balaclava-wearing, club-wielding tea.

And surely you must know what kind of groups in Russia use those colours?

Groups having a party!

 

[frogwoman]

I saw liberal pro EU groups in fsvour of rights for gay people etc marching along the fash. Someone I used to work with I recently found out did political activism with a group who was militantly anti Russian, had printed some very dodgy leaflets etc. He was black, he had suffered racism etc there. His views were completely opposed to the fash but they often ended up on similar types of demonstrations etc.

Both 'sides' 'pro and anti Russian' have elements of both. There were anarchists at the maidan and there were also leftists at donetsk etc. Why is this hard to understand? And by identifying the left with one opposing camp of nationalism or whatever you only end up helping the far right on both sides

 

[tony.c]

What on earth makes you think that it would not be the third? Are you even watching this?

Well I'm trying to keep up, but I am not sure what Seventh Bullet meant by an anti-Maidan force. I saw some sort of defence militia opposing a torchlight Rightist march in Kiev the other night.
So this right wing pro-Russian group is opposed to the anti-corruption protestors, the pro-EU protestors, and the Right Sector then.

 

[butchersapron]

Well I'm trying to keep up, but I am not sure what Seventh Bullet meant by an anti-Maidan force. I saw some sort of defence militia opposing a torchlight Rightist march in Kiev the other night.
So this right wing pro-Russian group is opposed to the anti-corruption protestors, the pro-EU protestors, and the Right Sector then.

Yeah, oddly enough there are different far right groups/interests.

(I think your torchlight march was years or months ago btw)

 

[frogwoman]

Because nobody has provided compelling evidence that that's the case?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49690021/...ns-nationalists-turn-out-force-protest-putin/

Is this enough evidence yet?

 

[butchersapron]

Celebration

Spoiler: Good Times

 

[frogwoman]

The EDL say that they are against Nazis BTW. The danish people's party is quite happy to compare Muslim immigrants to the Nazi occupation of the war. Plainly they are not far right then.

Even Breivik came out with similar anti Nazi stuff. And there are loads of antisemites etc who say that 'Zionists' helped Nazis in the war plainly they're not far right either!

 

[pocketscience]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49690021/...ns-nationalists-turn-out-force-protest-putin/

Is this enough evidence yet?

That's in Russia.
This threads about Ukraine and this particular discussion about 3 people in donesk holding up a banner that nobody has been able to decipher what its context is.

 

[butchersapron]

That's in Russia.
This threads about Ukraine and this particular discussion about 3 people in donesk holding up a banner that nobody has been able to decipher what its context is.

You're not even in the right fucking city and you've not even seen all the other pics - even though they're on the thread that you're posting on. You mug.

 

[butchersapron]

That's in Russia.
This threads about Ukraine and this particular discussion about 3 people in donesk holding up a banner that nobody has been able to decipher what its context is.

Show us these 3 people holding up a banner in donetsk please.

 

[pocketscience]

Just to point out why context is important:

Same flag - two different contexts

 

[pocketscience]

Show us these 3 people holding up a banner in donetsk please.

Sorry I meant Odessa

 

[frogwoman]

It's a political flag. Can't you see that?

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry I meant Odessa

You are a dangerous idiot:

 

[frogwoman]

You are a dangerous idiot:

Was that from the same demo?

 

[butchersapron]

Was that from the same demo?

Yep. March 16th Odessa.

 

[pocketscience]

You are a dangerous idiot:

No, you're just doing an awful job of convincing me. Afterall, I'm only taking your own advice of not taking things at face value.

So you mean the crest?
Isn't that the Odessa coat of Arms?

 

[frogwoman]

All this demonization of the Maidan protesters and the Ukrainian population who aren't fans of Russia actually ends up helping the likes of Right Sector and co.

 

[butchersapron]

No, you're just doing an awful job of convincing me. Afterall, I'm only taking your own advice of not taking things at face value.

So you mean the crest?
Isn't that the Odessa coat of Arms?

Another celebration. With some incidental colours.

This is anti-fascism is it? You make me proper sick.

 

[frogwoman]

There's almost no left to speak of there, who aren't identified with Russian imperialism. If you were a Ukrainian why would you support the likes of Yanukovich and the Communist party? Why would you?

 

[butchersapron]

Just to point out why context is important:

Same flag - two different contexts

And you ignore what those colours mean in that fucking context.

 

[tony.c]

If you were a Ukrainian why would you support the likes of Yanukovich and the Communist party? Why would you?

Aren't the Russian speaking Ukrainians Ukrainian then?
And no you probably wouldn't support the corruption of the Yanukovich regime, though I believe they were actually elected (by who?), but then again you wouldn't support the discrimination and suppression of Russian speakers either.

 

[frogwoman]

Aren't the Russian speaking Ukrainians Ukrainian then?
And no you probably wouldn't support the corruption of the Yanukovich regime, though I believe they were actually elected (by who?), but then again you wouldn't support the discrimination and suppression of Russian speakers either.

Of course they are but not all of them support the Russian Government.

In Kiev most people speak Russian.

 

[tony.c]

Of course they are but not all of them support the Russian Government.
In Kiev most people speak Russian.

OK I understand that not all would support Putin and the Russian Government, I thought you were talking about Yanukovich.

 

[frogwoman]

OK I understand that not all would support Putin and the Russian Government, I thought you were talking about Yanukovich.

You think that speaking Russian or having a Russian ethnicity means they support him/Russia?

You don't reckon some of those who voted for Yanukovich did so because they didn't want the alternatives?

 

[tony.c]

I don't know. I didn't know anything about Ukraine until the Maidan protests, and I didn't really know much about them or take much notice until this thread pointed out the involvement of the Far Right.
I don't know what the alternatives to Yanukovich were tbh.

 

[seventh bullet]

Could you clarify what you mean by 'an anti-Maidan force'?
Is it they are against the original anti-corruption protests, or against the pro-EU supporters, or against the Right Sector/fascist activists.
I am guessing that you are saying that it is the first, or the first and second. But not the third?

I've only been having a peek at them today, and it's just what I've read on their own VK pages. OD members have been involved in street fights and stand offs with the third for quite some time, haven't they?

Facing each other while among opposing crowds (with a police line between) in Odessa back in March.



A vid in support of Crimea back in March from the Kulikovo Field square (scene of the fire yesterday) camp set up by OD as a place for organising and demonstrations.



OD training at the camp (again back in March).



The man in camouflage and cap talking in the second vid is a leading member of OD, a man by the name of Dimitry Odinov. A little bit of googling suggests he has links with a racist, far-right group named Slavic Unity, which, among other things where he is mentioned (if it is indeed him), held an anti-migrant (i.e. don't want those poor, foreign coloured scum in my area) demonstration in Odessa back in 2011.

An unrelated picture of him with his SU chums in Odessa during the November 2012 'Russian March,' a big demonstration day (or not long after it) for Russian nationalists/fascists on 4 November when Unity Day is a national holiday in Russia. He's on the left wearing the brown jacket with the megaphone. By the looks of those colours, I think they were just having a party. Nothing bad. Just a bit of fun. What do you think pocketscience?

This is just me doing a bit of light googling (and not without the potential for making mistakes and wrong assumptions) but it's not looking good ...