Ukraine

[butchersapron]

I know there are fash on both sides of the er... debate, they are basically the sock full of snookerballs in this thing (a weapon for brawling). I get the strong impression that antiRussian Ukranian fash are a lot more involved in driving things though. Whereas the Russian fash are just in it because they heard that theres a fight going on, if that makes sense.

You didn't read that article did you? It's not about street-fighters heading to the east. It's about high-level connections between european far-right leaders and parties and the Russian state and the former making themselves available to the latter to help achieve their foreign policy aims.

 

[Idris2002]

You didn't read that article did you? It's not about street-fighters heading to the east. It's about high-level connections between european far-right leaders and parties and the Russian state and the former making themselves available to the latter to help achieve their foreign policy aims.

Buried within it is a more important point, about emerging structural links between w.European economies and Moscow. This is presented in a conspiratorial fashion, though, rather than as a result of structural factors within both Russia and w.Europe. Those structural factors are the reason why I think this will eventually shake out (a few years from now) in some sort of Paris-Berlin-Moscow axis.

And the war of 2025 will be the US versus China, with the PBM watching from the sidelines.

 

[butchersapron]

The only interesting thing about that article is the details of links between the far-right and the Kremlin, it fails as far as I can see, to demonstrate that there is more to it than the far-right is pleading with Vlad for him to use them as his useful idiots.

As for this:



Why does he throw in 'far left' there, and in other places in his paper?

The only interesting thing in that article is it's content?

And is suspect he included that last bit because of those parts of the international global left that are lining up behind Putin and the russian state - the lastest examples being kagarlitskey comparing donetsk to the paris commune and Badiou using ridiculous philosophy to mask ridiculous inaccurate internationalist-nationalism :

Similarly, the fact that Ukraine has always had separatist tendencies and that these have constantly been reactive: that is, backed by strongly reactionary powers and even worse. The Ukrainian Orthodox clergy, whose sacred city is Kiev, has played a determining role in all this, and it goes without saying that it is the most reactionary on Earth, a megalomaniac centre of Imperial Orthodoxy. This separatism at certain moments reached extremes that no one could forget, particularly not the Russian people, knowing that the vast mass of the Nazi-armed and organised armies coming from Russian territory were Ukrainian. The Vlasov army was a Ukrainian army. Today we can even read the history of Ukrainians turning entire villages to blood and fire, including French ones. A good part of the repression of the maquis in central France was carried out by Ukrainians. We are no identitarians, we are not going to say: ‘What bastards, those Ukrainians!’, but all this does constitute a history, the history of a certain number of the political subjects in Ukraine.

 

[camouflage]

You didn't read that article did you? It's not about street-fighters heading to the east. It's about high-level connections between european far-right leaders and parties and the Russian state and the former making themselves available to the latter to help achieve their foreign policy aims.

No I didn't, will have to read later.

 

[camouflage]

Buried within it is a more important point, about emerging structural links between w.European economies and Moscow. This is presented in a conspiratorial fashion, though, rather than as a result of structural factors within both Russia and w.Europe. Those structural factors are the reason why I think this will eventually shake out (a few years from now) in some sort of Paris-Berlin-Moscow axis.

And the war of 2025 will be the US versus China, with the PBM watching from the sidelines.

Have a read of this: http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/stud....html/_res/id=sa_File1/The_Next_100_Years.pdf

it's hilarious.

 

[Idris2002]

The only interesting thing in that article is it's content?

And is suspect he included that last bit because of those parts of the international global left that are lining up behind Putin and the russian state - the lastest examples being kagarlitskey comparing donetsk to the paris commune and Badiou using ridiculous philosophy to mask ridiculous inaccurate internationalist-nationalism :

The most striking thing about it is the general tone of 'cats and dogs living together' which the author brings to his discussion of this case. And unlike you, it is quite obvious that he is unaware of the major differences within the 'far left' which he quite obviously sees as one homogeneous bloc which he can blithely lump in with the far right as one collective whole.

 

[butchersapron]

This is a useful interview with Volodymyr Ishchenko from a week or so back.

...
So is this really a Ukrainian uprising? Or are these just superpowers playing with a pawn?

VI: Yeah, that’s a big problem now in the discourse. Those who don’t like the Anti-Maidan uprising in the Eastern Ukraine see it mainly as Russian manipulation: just irrational, stupid people who want a more authoritarian regime, who want a Russian dictatorship, who do not understand their real interests.

And the symmetrical picture—by the Russian media or by those who didn’t like Maidan protesters—is of manipulation by Western governments or by Ukrainian oligarchs; the claim, again, is that the people do not understand what they are fighting for.

Obviously you cannot deny that both the U.S. and Russia—and the EU—try to influence Ukrainian politics. They would be stupid if they didn’t. They are great powers, they have their imperialist interests, and that’s what we can expect from them.

But then you deny the grassroots nature of this protest. People are talking about real problems. People are self-organizing, both in Maidan in the Western Ukraine and in the Eastern Ukraine now. And you cannot just reduce it to this great power play.

 

[butchersapron]

The most striking thing about it is the general tone of 'cats and dogs living together' which the author brings to his discussion of this case. And unlike you, it is quite obvious that he is unaware of the major differences within the 'far left' which he quite obviously sees as one homogeneous bloc which he can blithely lump in with the far right as one collective whole.

Does he really do that by just missing out on a qualifier to make it read:

Today, the far right (and elements of the far left) seem to be the most convenient partners for Putin.

After all, he knows that elements of the far-right are supportive of the kiev givt as well but didn't feel the need to say elements of. Maybe he's just expecting his readership to know that he means that, rather than actually meaning the whole far-left or far-right. After all, his current work is taking place in the heavily orthodox official Communist/orthodox social democratic/searchlight enviroment of the New Media Research Group at Northampton right now.

 

[camouflage]

This is a useful interview with Volodymyr Ishchenko from a week or so back.

You're always making this point, about grass-roots as opposed to chessboards. I think it's a combination of both. Imagine some state-room full of admirals pushing little model battle-ships across a map in neat rows and squadrons... that's the chess game and yes it's real, and in some other stateroom somewhere else, other admirals are doing likewise to little ships on pretty maps in opposition to the first lot.

Meanwhile there's a storm brewing, thunder and lightening, gales and horizontal rain, that'd be the people and their reactions to their problems.

 

[butchersapron]

You're always making this point, about grass-roots as opposed to chessboards. I think it's a combination of both. Imagine some state-room full of admirals pushing little model battle-ships across a map in neat rows and squadrons... that's the chess game and yes it's real, and in some other stateroom somewhere else, other admirals are doing likewise to little ships on pretty maps in opposition to the first lot.

Meanwhile there's a storm brewing, thunder and lightening, gales and horizontal rain, that'd be the people and their reactions to their problems.

Why don't you read the article? The time that you've spent posting that would have been enough. I picked out one paragraph in order to make a point about the self-organisation that's taking place on both sides given the posts above about the new austerity plans and the potential for class or social based opposition to them. You keep looking to the stars.

 

[Idris2002]

Does he really do that by just missing out on a qualifier to make it read:



After all, he knows that elements of the far-right are supportive of the kiev givt as well but didn't feel the need to say elements of. Maybe he's just expecting his readership to know that he means that, rather than actually meaning the whole far-left or far-right. After all, his current work is taking place in the heavily orthodox official Communist/orthodox social democratic/searchlight enviroment of the New Media Research Group at Northampton right now.

Yeah, but why did he miss out the key qualifier, hmmm?

 

[butchersapron]

Actually idiris, on reflection, that group he's with are very much anti-extremism (in the searchlight mould) and happy to see two equal extremes, so he may have been doing that lumping you say - but given where it was published and his background he should know better. Which, means it may well have been done on purpose - but again, that's still not quite doing it out of ignorance.

 

[Idris2002]

but again, that's still not quite doing it out of ignorance.

Which makes it worse, surely?

Human beings have a bad habit of seeing what they want to see, especially where politics are concerned, but it's worse when they do it on purpose. . .

 

[butchersapron]

Which makes it worse, surely?

Human beings have a bad habit of seeing what they want to see, especially where politics are concerned, but it's worse when they do it on purpose. . .

I'm still not convinced that he has done it though - for example the opening para contains regional qualifications for far-right support for the russian state:

The allegedly anti-globalist agenda of the Kremlin – which, in reality, is a concealed attempt at seizing and securing the position of the global superpower for Russia itself – attracts the European far left too, especially in Germany, France, Greece, Portugal and the Czech Republic.

The bit you picked out from the end can be read as that qualified far-left. Or it could just be read as not meaning the entire far-left. In the same way it can (and should given the evidence, evidence that he has often posted about before) be read as not meaning the entire far-right.

 

[butchersapron]

Which makes it worse, surely?

Human beings have a bad habit of seeing what they want to see, especially where politics are concerned, but it's worse when they do it on purpose. . .

Yes. See Kagarlitsky and the donetsk/paris commune.

 

[ViolentPanda]

One more thing to leave here for future reference (if it hasn't been already), given the elections are supposed to be held this month. Although it almost seems a bit dated now after the attention has moved further east. A bit of horror-comic relief.

Now for A Party Political Broadcast from everybody's favourite presidential candidate, Dmitro Yarosh!


I can't find the English subtitled version anymore, so here's 'the words'. Everybody now...

Spoiler: The Great Ukrainian Resurgence (for which R.S. fights)

"The Great Ukrainian Resurgence (for which R.S. fights)"
We, the soldiers and commanders of Right Sector ...
- in memory of the heroic struggle of Svyatoslav the Brave, Daniil of Galicia, Bohdan Khmelnytsky and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army,
- embodying the right of the people to rise up against injustice,
- in recognition of our responsibilities before the dead and maimed heroes of the Maidan,
...enter the fray!
For the right of every Ukrainian to dignity. For a fair trial of the Berkut, and other dogs of the system of occupation. Against the humiliation and impoverishment of the Ukrainian people. Against the Authorities' war against their own people.
For responsibility amongst voters, and responsibility amongst politians. For an elected Judiciary. Against mercantile, marginal democracy {other party leaders}. Against degeneration, and Totalitarian Liberalism {falling Lenin statue}. For traditional, popular morals and family values {smiling straight couples and children}. Physical and spiritual health and vigour for the many children of the Ukrainian family {street fighters}. Against the cult of greed and depravity {performers on stage}. Against integrations on terms not dictated by Ukraine {EU signing}. For the unity and global greatness of the Ukrainian Nation. For a Great Ukrainian, a Great European resurgence {white power flags}.
This is just the beginning. The beginning of the rebirth of Kievan Rus. The beginning of the rebirth of Europe. It begins with our Maidan!
Glory to Ukraine!

Yarosh =

 

[newbie]

I picked out one paragraph in order to make a point about the self-organisation that's taking place on both sides given the posts above about the new austerity plans and the potential for class or social based opposition to them.

well the best of luck to them, there's plenty to organise around, with conscription being at the top of any list I was drawing up.

This is the what sets the context though:

Energy prices in Ukraine are exceptionally low. Currently, the gas price for households in Ukraine is $85 for one thousand cubic meter. In Russia—a gas producing and exporting economy—the price is $158 for one thousand cubic meter. The regional differences are even larger with prices in Ukraine being 4 to 9 times lower than in neighboring gas-importing economies. In January 2014, Romania’s citizens paid about $ 414, Moldova’s $ 432, and Poland’s $ 687 for one thousand cubic meter.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2014/new043014a.htm

Opposition to austerity is an obvious locus for class based organisation across nationalist, language or regional lines. But where can it go, what can it achieve, what possibilities could even a fully united Ukrainian working class bring to the table? Not that there seems much chance of that. They're going to have to pay for their gas somehow, nothing the working class of Ukraine can do is going to change that. What's the best they can hope for?

 

[butchersapron]

That context being set by other struggles around the globe. The IMF etc doesn't juset get to impose what it wants where it wants when it wants. It's plan are moulded precisely the ground up class and social organisation - they are reactive to them. In the last 20 years in the ukraine alone the state (no matter which oligararch was having a go) were utterly unable to impose the IMF plans due to class opposition.

Have we really reached the stage of only being able to see them and their actions? Nothing else? Or that history only started last december?

 

[Barking_Mad]

'Terrorists' in Eastern Ukraine

 

[sptme]

BBC reporting 'many dead' in sloviansk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27259614

 

[butchersapron]

BBC reporting 'many dead' in sloviansk
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27259614

No they're not. They're reporting interim president Oleksandr Turchynov saying that. These are massively different things.

 

[elbows]

Dozens killed in a fire in an official building in Odessa apparently. The thing I've seen as only breaking news at the moment so I haven't got many details yet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27259620

 

[butchersapron]

Dozens killed in a fire in an official building in Odessa apparently. The thing I've seen as only breaking news at the moment so I haven't got many details yet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27259620

Beware the dozens for now. A pro-kiev match in odessa was attacked by pro-russians - police did nothing to stop it. Latter lost the fight (suggestions at cost of three of the pro-kiev lot) and holed up in the regional admin building (erroneously said to be a trad union building to help the fascits burn anti-facsist alice in attack on union building narrative - you'll get some of that later when CR finishes shift) - they went on top and lobbed molotovs and fired shots down at kiev lot. I don't know if this started the fire or it was the kieve lot getting in - neither would surprise me.

Putin will be warming his hands - all them dead bodies.

 

[butchersapron]

No need to wait for CR - RT already definitively reporting as work of "right sector"

 

[frogwoman]

31 dead apparently

 

[butchersapron]

Wonder how many journeyed over from moldova to do their bit.

 

[frogwoman]

Wonder how many journeyed over from moldova to do their bit.

Some on both sides I imagine.

Lots of Moldovan anti Russian fash (and some Russian fash too I think)

 

[butchersapron]

God, if i hear "watching very carefully" one more fucking time.

 

[Kaka Tim]

In a way it doesn't really matter what actually happened - its what people believed happened. On CIF in the graun theres posters claiming that the right sector blocked the exits and beat people as they tried to escape the flames. Fuck knows the truth - but its clear that competing atrocity stories are being spread enthusiasticly by the ultras on both sides - what a horrible clusterfuck.

And all the more sickening because it was utterly predictable pretty much from the moment that yanukovich got turfed out and the western media and politicians danced a 'fuck you putin' jig.

 

[goldenecitrone]

And all the more sickening because it was utterly predictable pretty much from the moment that yanukovich got turfed out and the western media and politicians danced a 'fuck you putin' jig.

And Russian media and politicians danced the 'they're all Nazis' polka.