Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Incoherent coup installed lashup with neoliberal and ethnonationalist components. It's not fascist. This isn't just pedantry, not unless you confuse pedantry with the kind of conceptual accuracy you need to make any kind of sensible assessment.

if there was a gang of cunts wearing wolfsangels pulling your fingernails out on the maidan I doubt youd be referring to it as some neo liberals losing the run of themselves

to treat this as some student union debate when it was glaringly apparent from the outset large swathes of the population would have to be physically suppressed, that civil war was a real possibility, and that you dont motivate people to kill others by telling them the IMF say we have to balance the books by slashing services and opening up our market... im sorry but thats an exercise in pedantry .

 

[classicdish]

@Casually Red how many members do you think the Right Sector et al actually have?

 

[Casually Red]

not enough to stop the uprising against them, thats for fucking sure

 

[classicdish]

not enough to stop the uprising against them, thats for fucking sure

Do you believe their claims of 10,000 members? eg http://www.newsweek.com/2014/03/28/yarosh-russians-rise-against-putin-248025.html

..or a different member who "estimates that the Right Sector in Kiev has about 100 active members"
source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/03/15/221347/leader-of-ukraines-right-sector.html

 

[Casually Red]

regardless of how many card carrying member they have in any part of ukraine, the issue now is how many right sector have under their command in the militias the state are sponsoring. Such as the national guard and the other state approved militias the junta are encouraging the growth of all over the place now the military and police wont obey orders. Examples of which Ive already posted.

 

[classicdish]

...the issue now is how many right sector have under their command in the militias the state are sponsoring...

So how many of these are there?

 

[pocketscience]

So how many of these are there?

Is any member of the new "Facist Invoved Government" being continually vocal on strongly opposing right sector?

 

[scalyboy]

Simon Ostrovsky gives details of his imprisonment. I don't believe a word of it.

Why not?

 

[SpineyNorman]

if there was a gang of cunts wearing wolfsangels pulling your fingernails out on the maidan I doubt youd be referring to it as some neo liberals losing the run of themselves

to treat this as some student union debate when it was glaringly apparent from the outset large swathes of the population would have to be physically suppressed, that civil war was a real possibility, and that you dont motivate people to kill others by telling them the IMF say we have to balance the books by slashing services and opening up our market... im sorry but thats an exercise in pedantry .

Yes, I can see how someone with your simplistic binary cold war throwback worldview might see it like that.

 

[classicdish]

Is any member of the new "Facist Invoved Government" being continually vocal on strongly opposing right sector?

What has that got to do with how many there are?

 

[DairyQueen]

Why not?

I listened to it again, and maybe it was not that bad. I think that someone beaten up by a bunch of guys under siege from a large military force would have been in worse shape than that.

More to the point, the guy went to the east of the country knowing full well what he was getting himself in for. A series of sarcastic and condescending reports on authorities that were created overnight and under the threat of considerable force while having a huge range of responsibilities for a landmass bigger than the Netherlands. This was at a time when god knows what was going in Slovyansk (Ostrovsky never had time to tell us, but did have time to tell us how silly the new authorities' press conferences were).

 

[pocketscience]

What has that got to do with how many there are?

Nothing, but it must be easier to answer than your question of how many members there are.
It'll also give us an indication of the sphere of influence they have over the Rada.

 

[DairyQueen]

What is the source of this image from Casually Red ?

 

[camouflage]

Yes, I can see how someone with your simplistic binary cold war throwback worldview might see it like that.

Quite right. A plate of shite is different and distinct from a meal that happes to have "some", that's "some" shite in it. Casually Red is an unsophisticated bore, he/she or it lacks the necessary subtlety of pallet to tuck in and really appreciate the many complex grades of brown at play here. Fascists in ministerial and other government positions aren't scary or threatening, and if a person happens to be fascist... so what? Live an let live I say. Don't be such a simplistic old stuckinthemud CR, you couldn't even say on demand how many turds are in this stew exactly

 

[DairyQueen]

Do you believe their claims of 10,000 members? eg http://www.newsweek.com/2014/03/28/yarosh-russians-rise-against-putin-248025.html

..or a different member who "estimates that the Right Sector in Kiev has about 100 active members"
source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/03/15/221347/leader-of-ukraines-right-sector.html

Would be interested reading the book Yarosh has written; Nation and Revolution. Anyone got a copy?

 

[goldenecitrone]

..or a different member who "estimates that the Right Sector in Kiev has about 100 active members"
source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/03/15/221347/leader-of-ukraines-right-sector.html

It's almost like this whole Right Sector thing has been massively blown out of proportion as some kind of propaganda tool. Imagine.

 

[pocketscience]

It's almost like this whole Right Sector thing has been massively blown out of proportion as some kind of propaganda tool. Imagine.

Or down-played so the western public stand behind the popular peaceful overthrow of the undemocratic Yanukovich.

 

[sunny jim]

It's almost like this whole Right Sector thing has been massively blown out of proportion as some kind of propaganda tool. Imagine.

Back in January the BBC in a live news report were talking of the Maiden demonstrators as 'fighters for democracy' just as one of the 'fighters for democracy' walked past wearing full SS regalia. Yeah, we know which side was up to propaganda tricks.

 

[Casually Red]

What is the source of this image from Casually Red ?

thats from a recent protest in Odessa . The message on the banner states arrest the junta, Fascism shall not pass .

 

[goldenecitrone]

Back in January the BBC in a live news report were talking of the Maiden demonstrators as 'fighters for democracy' just as one of the 'fighters for democracy' walked past wearing full SS regalia. Yeah, we know which side was up to propaganda tricks.

Both sides, clearly.

 

[J Ed]

Back in January the BBC in a live news report were talking of the Maiden demonstrators as 'fighters for democracy' just as one of the 'fighters for democracy' walked past wearing full SS regalia. Yeah, we know which side was up to propaganda tricks.

I will never forget just how naked the propaganda was when the BBC called the people with neo-Nazi flags and uniforms pro-EU democrats.

 

[butchersapron]

thats from a recent protest in Odessa . The message on the banner states arrest the junta, Fascism shall not pass .

It's from march 16th. I note you didn't mention the monarchist flags and banners on that little demo. Nor the monarchists marching with shields and weapons. Right next to the pic of the banner that you included - the uncropped picture is:

 

[scalyboy]

thats from a recent protest in Odessa . The message on the banner states arrest the junta, Fascism shall not pass .

More like "Down with the fascists - remove them from power". I like the strangled Nazi eagle/chicken design; anyone seen this elsewhere?

 

[DairyQueen]

Where are the weapons butchersapron ?

 

[andysays]

Back in January the BBC in a live news report were talking of the Maiden demonstrators as 'fighters for democracy' just as one of the 'fighters for democracy' walked past wearing full SS regalia. Yeah, we know which side was up to propaganda tricks.

Clearly the BBC reporting has been woefully one-sided at times*, but rather arguing which "side" has been up to propaganda tricks, might it not be better to recognise that both/all "sides" have, and rather than accepting any info at face value we should be asking who it's coming from and what particular interests it might therefore be serving?

This suggestion applies to many posting here, of course, not just to you.

* in fact at times it's been woeful even as propaganda, so transparent it's been. Lord Reith must be turning in his grave. Makes me ashamed to be British, etc...

 

[butchersapron]

Where are the weapons butchersapron ?

More.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Quite right. A plate of shite is different and distinct from a meal that happes to have "some", that's "some" shite in it. Casually Red is an unsophisticated bore, he/she or it lacks the necessary subtlety of pallet to tuck in and really appreciate the many complex grades of brown at play here. Fascists in ministerial and other government positions aren't scary or threatening, and if a person happens to be fascist... so what? Live an let live I say. Don't be such a simplistic old stuckinthemud CR, you couldn't even say on demand how many turds are in this stew exactly

Another clueless fuckwit. Where have I or anyone else said fascists in ministerial positions isn't a frightening prospect? If you bother to look you'll find several comments from me on this very thread expressing the opposite sentiment.

 

[pocketscience]

Another clueless fuckwit. Where have I or anyone else said fascists in ministerial positions isn't a frightening prospect? If you bother to look you'll find several comments from me on this very thread expressing the opposite sentiment.

Now I'm confused. Can you explain what you meant then with this post:

I'm confused - I thought the fascists in the Kiev government was in control of the army and that was how we knew it had turned fascist?
Must say I'm relieved to learn that's not the case.

Maybe some kind of irony has gone over my head but it reads to me like like your trying to project the idea that theres actually nothing to worry about anymore because one of these fascist involved government misnisters is having an internal power struggle and appears to be losing control of his department. Or was you just being provocative to spark an arguement on the merits of what makes a fascist a fascist?

Also, would you (and classicdish) consider Parubiy as a fascist?

 

[frogwoman]

Isn't that Russian black/yellow/white flag a fash flag?

I wouldn't want to write all the Russian/Eastern Ukrainian protesters off as far righters - as I have said before protests and popular movements in these places tend to have a very mixed character

 

[DairyQueen]

Isn't that Russian black/yellow/white flag a fash flag?

I wouldn't want to write all the Russian/Eastern Ukrainian protesters off as far righters - as I have said before protests and popular movements in these places tend to have a very mixed character

The black/yellow/white flag is the old flag from the Russian Empire days. No idea who is using it and its meaning beyond some allegiance to Russia (for example, who the far-right groups are that wiki is referring to).