Ukraine

[SpineyNorman]

Andriy Parubiy (Social Nationalist Party/ Svoboda) was apoointed commander of the National Defence and Security Council of Ukraine. DymitroYarosh (Right Sector) was apponited his second in command of the National Defence and Security Council of Ukraine.
Appointed being the optimum word here seeing as that "command" seems to have effect.
Hope that clears up some of your confusion

Yes I know. (Though I'm pretty sure Yarosh turned it down as being 'beneath him'). But earlier on in the thread I was being told that the state had turned fascist because fascists controlled the military and police. My point was that while the Kiev government contains people who are at best far right nationalists and at worst nazis that didn't mean the state had turned fascist - and the lack of de-facto control over the army was a reason why (though not the only reason). The point being that it takes more than a couple of far right ministers to turn a state fascist, and that to effectively oppose a government or a state it's essential to understand its nature. For all its rhetorical power, screaming fascism isn't very helpful in that regard.

 

[pocketscience]

It's enough reason for the current government to be called fascist not only due to those appointments but, how they came to be appointed.

 

[8ball]

It's enough reason for the current government to be called fascist not only due to those appointments but, how they came to be appointed.

I think you need a few things more than that to credibly call a government fascist.

 

[frogwoman]

Just because a state isn't fascist doesn't mean they're not cunts.

 

[goldenecitrone]

For all its rhetorical power, screaming fascism isn't very helpful in that regard.

It may not be helpful, but it seems to act like internet Viagra on the deluded impotents running round shouting it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's enough reason for the current government to be called fascist not only due to those appointments but, how they came to be appointed.

That's not sufficient either. Do you know what fascism is?

 

[frogwoman]

There might even be political systems that are worse than fascism.

 

[8ball]

Just because a state isn't fascist doesn't mean they're not cunts.

True dat.

 

[pocketscience]

That's not sufficient either. Do you know what fascism is?

Yeah, it's a word that starts endless, tedious arguments by internet pedants about semantics .

 

[frogwoman]

Fascism has a specific meaning though. Its not just something you don't like.

 

[pocketscience]

Fascism has a specific meaning though. Its not just something you don't like.

If it was, I'd call the Kiev governement egg salad or brussels sprouts. Fascist better fits the bill for me.
So what is the name for this type of government according the the oxford english dictionary?

 

[SpineyNorman]

If it was, I'd call the Kiev governement egg salad or brussels sprouts. Fascist better fits the bill for me.
So what is the name for this type of government according the the oxford english dictionary?

Incoherent coup installed lashup with neoliberal and ethnonationalist components. It's not fascist. This isn't just pedantry, not unless you confuse pedantry with the kind of conceptual accuracy you need to make any kind of sensible assessment.

 

[frogwoman]

I just think if people are going to chuck around terms like Nazi etc they fucking ought to be able to back it up. There's arguments for considering some of the regimes in the middle east like the Egyptian one fascist or at least fulfilling a similar role to fascism.

I don't see it in this case though. Where is the mass semi official paramilitary street movement? Where is the obsessive cult of the charismatic leader and the concept of a palingenetic rebirth? (Ie that the regime is going to sweep away all the shit and make the nation great like the great national heroes did) are they coming out with that sort of thing in their public statements?

Maybe they are, I am willing to be proved wrong but as far as I can see it is a very incoherent right wing coup with fascists involved alongside all sorts of others (and Svoboda having lost some of their credibility among groups like right sector etc)

 

[frogwoman]

And it is not being pedantic, it is very important to get this right I would say.

 

[frogwoman]

http://backdoorbroadcasting.net/arc...1_09_22_PopulistRacism_AndreasUmland_talk.mp3

Listening to this now, may be of interest to some, about zhirinovsky.

 

[pocketscience]

I just think if people are going to chuck around terms like Nazi etc they fucking ought to be able to back it up. There's arguments for considering some of the regimes in the middle east like the Egyptian one fascist or at least fulfilling a similar role to fascism.

I don't see it in this case though. Where is the mass semi official paramilitary street movement? Where is the obsessive cult of the charismatic leader and the concept of a palingenetic rebirth? (Ie that the regime is going to sweep away all the shit and make the nation great like the great national heroes did) are they coming out with that sort of thing in their public statements?

Maybe they are, I am willing to be proved wrong but as far as I can see it is a very incoherent right wing coup with fascists involved alongside all sorts of others (and Svoboda having lost some of their credibility among groups like right sector etc)

Well, at least you aknowledge that fascists are involved .

 

[frogwoman]

Well, at least you aknowledge that fascists are involved .

Of course they are involved!

 

[pocketscience]

OK I give in. I'll only refer to them as the fasccist involved goverment from now on.
Meanwhile my Mrs just called me a fascist for insisting to have the CL semi final on instead of some reality tv shit...
It gets used quite a lot around these parts.

 

[DairyQueen]

Simon Ostrovsky gives details of his imprisonment. I don't believe a word of it.

Also, Modlova will have freedom of movement across the EU on Monday.

And it is not being pedantic, it is very important to get this right I would say.

I hate the fact that Ukraine is being singled out for having fascist tendencies when the EU is going to be embroiled in an anti-Russian crusade for the forseeable future. A bunch of privileged twats will no doubt take great joy looking at shortages of various goods/investment in (parts of) Russia, the same cunts will undoubtedly do the rounds across some of our 'friends' bullet-ridden cities posing idiotically naïve rhetorical questions ("will anything stop that Mad Vlad?"), and we will be continually told 'the Russia problem' is one that everyone across the political spectrum agrees with (and anyone who disagrees will be accused of being a Nazi or be represented by George Galloway or some other nutcase).

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well, at least you aknowledge that fascists are involved .

Who has said that fascists are not involved? Hague doesn't count - I mean people on this thread.

 

[pocketscience]

Who has said that fascists are not involved? Hague doesn't count - I mean people on this thread.

Christ on a bike...
OK, they're cunts as frogwoman succintly put it. Now please don't start picking petty arguments that the Kiev government isn't made up of female genitalia

Do you go to Antifa meetings telling the poeple there that they shouldn't be fighting half of what they're against because it aint strictly fascist?

 

[Casually Red]

I'm sure Russia is straining every sinew to encourage defection of (or among) Ukraine's armed forces.

At the very least, it can sow doubt in Kiev about their loyalty.

I'm equally sure we should read anything put out by RT as part of that effort.

oh fuck off seriously

blaming rt for this now

just stick to the BBC and its happy clappy the people have risen up narratives...that have gone well quiet .

 

[Casually Red]

I'm confused - I thought the fascists in the Kiev government was in control of the army and that was how we knew it had turned fascist?

Must say I'm relieved to learn that's not the case.

what is this rubbish ? The fascism derives from their politics. Being in control of an army does not make a regime fascist. Most countries have an army. Some very weird annoyance being expressed here by a few people now the truth is coming out.

 

[Casually Red]

Yes I know. (Though I'm pretty sure Yarosh turned it down as being 'beneath him'). But earlier on in the thread I was being told that the state had turned fascist because fascists controlled the military and police. .

no you werent, thats utter bollocks. Youre making up your own straw men now, fuck knows why. Nobody claimed any such thing . Ever. The only accusations of fascism were made against fascists and their militias . The Ukrainian state has benn routinely described, by me anyway, as broken, and on the verge of being a failed state, not a fascist one.

My point was that while the Kiev government contains people who are at best far right nationalists and at worst nazis that didn't mean the state had turned fascist - and the lack of de-facto control over the army was a reason why (though not the only reason). The point being that it takes more than a couple of far right ministers to turn a state fascist, and that to effectively oppose a government or a state it's essential to understand its nature. For all its rhetorical power, screaming fascism isn't very helpful in that regard


except nobody claimed that, so youre arguing against a point you just made up yourself. The argument made against the junta was not simply that it contained fascists, but that it was a puppet regime backed by foreign interests ,installed by a coup and therefore had no legitimacy . The rest of it youve just made up yourself .

 

[laptop]

blaming rt for this now

blah blah

Just fuck off, you. As I said much earlier, it's not a fucking football match.

Disagreeing with you is not the same as supporting your enemy.

Treating all sources more sceptically then you do is absolutely the opposite of the drivel you claim.

 

[classicdish]

DymitroYarosh (Right Sector) was apponited his second in command of the National Defence and Security Council of Ukraine.

Here is the full membership of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, Yarosh is not listed:
http://www.rnbo.gov.ua/content/sklad.html

"After much debate, Yarosh was offered the role of deputy head of the National Security Council, but rejected it as beneath him."
http://time.com/11005/many-ukrainians-want-russia-to-invade/

 

[SpineyNorman]

no you werent, thats utter bollocks. Youre making up your own straw men now, fuck knows why. Nobody claimed any such thing . Ever. The only accusations of fascism were made against fascists and their militias . The Ukrainian state has benn routinely described, by me anyway, as broken, and on the verge of being a failed state, not a fascist one.

My point was that while the Kiev government contains people who are at best far right nationalists and at worst nazis that didn't mean the state had turned fascist - and the lack of de-facto control over the army was a reason why (though not the only reason). The point being that it takes more than a couple of far right ministers to turn a state fascist, and that to effectively oppose a government or a state it's essential to understand its nature. For all its rhetorical power, screaming fascism isn't very helpful in that regard


except nobody claimed that, so youre arguing against a point you just made up yourself. The argument made against the junta was not simply that it contained fascists, but that it was a puppet regime backed by foreign interests ,installed by a coup and therefore had no legitimacy . The rest of it youve just made up yourself .

No, go back and have a look what sunny jim was saying.

 

[SpineyNorman]

what is this rubbish ? The fascism derives from their politics. Being in control of an army does not make a regime fascist. Most countries have an army. Some very weird annoyance being expressed here by a few people now the truth is coming out.

Again, you seem to have missed the bit where sunny jim made precisely that claim.

 

[Casually Red]

I just think if people are going to chuck around terms like Nazi etc they fucking ought to be able to back it up. There's arguments for considering some of the regimes in the middle east like the Egyptian one fascist or at least fulfilling a similar role to fascism.

I don't see it in this case though. Where is the mass semi official paramilitary street movement? Where is the obsessive cult of the charismatic leader and the concept of a palingenetic rebirth? (Ie that the regime is going to sweep away all the shit and make the nation great like the great national heroes did) are they coming out with that sort of thing in their public statements?

Maybe they are, I am willing to be proved wrong but as far as I can see it is a very incoherent right wing coup with fascists involved alongside all sorts of others (and Svoboda having lost some of their credibility among groups like right sector etc)

youve plainly missed this crew forming militias all over the place, the brownshirtism in kharkiv the other night, their bestowing the highest national honours on the likes of Bandera and other genocidal maniacs . Their rehabilitation of the SS, their purging of communist and other parties seen as pro Russian .

This hasnt just started recently, its a political programme these people have been sponsoring for years . They were charging down that path from day one after assuming power but realised theyd made a massive blunder when they saw the reaction all this sparked in the east , since then theyve toned the rhetoric down and stopped chanting glory to ukraine..the heroes...a fascist chant they were turning into their own anthem . As Filatov said himself, act conciliatory now, hang them later. Thats what they have to do in order to survive but it looks like its too late now.

What ive stated constantly is that this coup has empowered nazis. That nazis are being used as the footsoldiers to put down dissent and silence the juntas enemies , while in effect enforcing the IMF and EUs programmes. The danger therefore lies not just in their empowerment on the street but against a wider political backdrop of the long term rehabilitation of fascism and genociders as the spirit of true patriotic monocultural ukraine . Where their message and legacy will be seen as the national one, were ethnic russians and others are seen as foreigners in need of cleansing , and neo nazis can silence opposing voices with state sanction . You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see were that will lead .

the juntas current inability to persue such a programme efficiently lies solely in the strength and vehemence of the opposition to it , not anywhere else.

 

[Casually Red]

Just fuck off, you. As I said much earlier, it's not a fucking football match.

Disagreeing with you is not the same as supporting your enemy.

Treating all sources more sceptically then you do is absolutely the opposite of the drivel you claim.

Ive missed your expressions of scepticism towards any other news source . BBC were talking shit all along, as were the Guardian. this opposition wasnt bussed in from Russia, RT isnt destabilising Ukraine either. Thats an idiotic statement to come out with