Ukraine

[DairyQueen]

Demographically, Russophilia and Russophobia in Ukraine aren't confined to a single class. They spread cross the demographic spectrum. They're experiential as well as, in some senses, mythical, so "often poor" could be seen as an overstatement.

"Russophilia" is not confined to a single class? Russophilia is experiential as well as mystical?

That's insane.

 

[Casually Red]

Has the coup attempt in eastern Ukraine failed?

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/4/eastern-ukraine-prorussianseparatistsdonetskdonbas.html

putin has 2 options...invasion or terrorism


Id like to say Ive never read a bigger pile of horseshit in my life but theres the BBC to contend with and then the guardian . But then again its from Al Jazeera so hardly surprising . The protestors are weaker than the EDL apparently, but theyve taken over administrative buildings and security headquarters in 3 seperate cities. While theres special forces and armour massing to eject them..all 200 or so of them.

horseshit , in a word.

 

[Casually Red]

Face it, one of the reasons Russian-speakers are not under threat of a pogrom is (at least in part) because of Putin.

the mere existence of Putin did little to deter the tie muncher from indiscriminately shelling Russian speakers, and killing Russian troops who stood in their way. This crew of assholes are just as tripped out on McCain juice as he was . If not moreso . As far as they are concerned the west has their back, indeed the world is with them. Dont underestimate how stupid these people are.

 

[Casually Red]

It must be true then, especially if he got the news from Russia Today, eh?

yes well, Russophilia is experiential as well as, in some senses, mystical afterall.

 

[Diamond]

What a dreadful mess.

Here's hoping sense prevails so that any nation can exert extraterritorial jurisdiction to annex those parts of its neighbours and near neighbours that it justifiably views as being ethno-linguistically connected.

About time too.

It's not like there's any precedent for revanchism of this nature going horribly wrong, is it?

Oh, you disagree?

Let me introduce you to my massed ranks of MiG 29 fast jets and columns of missile artillery...

 

[DairyQueen]

Is that really worth pointing out Diamond? Should extraterritorial jurisdiction only be exerted through a structured repayment plans or is exerting extraterritorial jurisdiction through coercion wrong in principle (regardless of how you do it)?

 

[butchersapron]

What a dreadful mess.

Here's hoping sense prevails so that any nation can exert extraterritorial jurisdiction to annex those parts of its neighbours and near neighbours that it justifiably views as being ethno-linguistically connected.

About time too.

It's not like there's any precedent for revanchism of this nature going horribly wrong, is it?

Oh, you disagree?

Let me introduce you to my massed ranks of MiG 29 fast jets and columns of missile artillery...

It's s legal matter.

Isn't it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Right, and when granted even a little autonomy Poland (and for that matter, Ukraine) do not engage in a little "taking back what is rightfully ours"?

Because that's what I've said, isn't it?

I suppose the intermarium was just to "protect the Polish peoples"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War

Don't pretend a Polish state is somehow 'purer' than the Russian one.

I'm not.

The Poles were never quite as accomplished at killing us (Jews), as the Russians have been, though. Possibly because Catholic anti-Semitism had already been knocked back several times in the 19th century, while Orthodox anti-Semitism hadn't (and still hasn't, to any extent).

They would be more than happy to shaft over their neighbours as much as Russia. Face it, one of the reasons Russian-speakers are not under threat of a pogrom is (at least in part) because of Putin.

That's a great post-event hypothesis. Do what you're supposed to do with a hypothesis, and test it, please!

I realise you have some allegiance to Ukraine, but seriously... what next? Are you going to start discussing how Rostov-on-don is truly a part of greater Ukraine, oppressed by sneaky Russians?

It's not about a territorial argument per se. Wider territorial arguments are sterile (almost as sterile as making assumptions that I think that Russians are "sneaky", you arse) - if we play "this belonged to us, and that belonged to you", conflict never ceases. It's about the right to self-determination without some fucker, whether from the EU, the US or Russia, putting a hand on your shoulder and saying "do as I command, bitch". That includes Ukrainian oligarchs with alleigances to those power blocs, too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Russophilia" is not confined to a single class? Russophilia is experiential as well as mystical?

Mythical, not "mystical".
In other words, some people are Russophile or Russophobe because of the stories they've absorbed as they grow up, just as they're experiential, in that what you experience as you grow up informs your point-of-view.

That's insane.

Only if you're an idiot, otherwise it's perfectly rational.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes well, Russophilia is experiential as well as, in some senses, mystical afterall.

Another wanker who can't read properly. How utterly unsurprising.

 

[treelover]

A doctored photo of an Adolf Hitler poster hanging from Kiev's city council building has been circulated by the head of a Russian TV station, apparently to suggest the prevalence of neo-Nazism in Ukraine.
"A portrait of Hitler has been put up on a building in Kiev, captioned 'Hitler the liberator'," tweeted Ashot Gabrelyanov, the chief of Life News TV. But the poster does not appear to have been seen by people in Kiev.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-26972374

Has this been mentioned?

most likely photo-shopped.

 

[DotCommunist]

yeah this is weeks old. someone even sourced the original image. There was no hitler. Theere was a spraypainted wolfs hook though

 

[DairyQueen]

Mythical, not "mystical".
In other words, some people are Russophile or Russophobe because of the stories they've absorbed as they grow up, just as they're experiential, in that what you experience as you grow up informs your point-of-view.

Only if you're an idiot, otherwise it's perfectly rational.

No, your entire concept of Russophilia - mythical or mystical - is ludicrous. Is Vladimir Putin a Russophile? Is a Russian? Is a Russian living in Ukraine? Is a Ukrainian living in Russia? Is a communist? Is a researcher who studies communism? Is a guy who reads a bit of Russian literature? Russophobia is a by-product of (perhaps extreme) Ukrainian nationalism, the equivalent, in this context, of Russian nationalism would presumably be anti-Ukrainian sentiment.

 

[DairyQueen]

It's not about a territorial argument per se. Wider territorial arguments are sterile (almost as sterile as making assumptions that I think that Russians are "sneaky", you arse) - if we play "this belonged to us, and that belonged to you", conflict never ceases. It's about the right to self-determination without some fucker, whether from the EU, the US or Russia, putting a hand on your shoulder and saying "do as I command, bitch". That includes Ukrainian oligarchs with alleigances to those power blocs, too.

This is (almost) entirely about territory. What you don't like is Russia annexing Crimea (I can find the quote - about 'nobbling pieces off Ukraine'). The problem is that if you truly let the people decide, the solution to Ukrainian problems could well be partition and fragmentation.

The problem for me is that if Crimea declared independence without the Russian state's support but with a democratic mandate of people that lived there, do you really think no shots would have been fired?

 

[seventh bullet]

No, your entire concept of Russophilia - mythical or mystical - is ludicrous. Is Vladimir Putin a Russophile? Is a Russian? Is a Russian living in Ukraine? Is a Ukrainian living in Russia? Is a communist? Is a researcher who studies communism? Is a guy who reads a bit of Russian literature? Russophobia is a by-product of (perhaps extreme) Ukrainian nationalism, the equivalent, in this context, of Russian nationalism would presumably be anti-Ukrainian sentiment.

Depending on what ViolentPanda is referring to, Russophilia has a particular historical meaning for old political movements in some parts of Ukraine.

 

[DairyQueen]

Depending on what ViolentPanda is referring to, Russophilia has a particular historical meaning for old political movements in some parts of Ukraine.

Seems a stretch?

 

[TomUS]

putin has 2 options...invasion or terrorism


Id like to say Ive never read a bigger pile of horseshit in my life but theres the BBC to contend with and then the guardian . But then again its from Al Jazeera so hardly surprising . The protestors are weaker than the EDL apparently, but theyve taken over administrative buildings and security headquarters in 3 seperate cities. While theres special forces and armour massing to eject them..all 200 or so of them.

horseshit , in a word.

So, Al Jazeera, the BBC & the Guardian are all mouthpieces of western imperialism? What info sources do you trust?

 

[free spirit]

yeah this is weeks old. someone even sourced the original image. There was no hitler. Theere was a spraypainted wolfs hook though

and the original post where the person said they'd shopped it.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Sorry, but I've very much not kept up with this thread. If my questions have been answered/discussed, please point me to the place in the thread where... Thanks.

In terms of this build up of troops on the east Ukraine border, is it as big as the UN is saying? What is the likelihood that Russia will use these troops to invade Ukraine? How would 'the west' respond if they did?

 

[TomUS]

Sorry, but I've very much not kept up with this thread. If my questions have been answered/discussed, please point me to the place in the thread where... Thanks.

In terms of this build up of troops on the east Ukraine border, is it as big as the UN is saying? What is the likelihood that Russia will use these troops to invade Ukraine? How would 'the west' respond if they did?

My impression the buildup is as big as the UN is saying. I doubt Russia will invade since it would bring really serious economic sanctions & they would likely get bogged down in a counter insurgency war. They remember Afghan & Chechnya.

 

[seventh bullet]

Seems a stretch?

Then what is your problem with the 'concept'?

 

[DairyQueen]

Then what is your problem with the 'concept'?

VP presents "Russophilia" and Russophobia as two concepts that share similarities and are both equally relevant to present-day Ukrainian politics. Fair cop, he never defined the term. But it seems to me that it is a term that is being reintroduced, in this context, to denigrate (in Western eyes) the economic and social interests of people in Ukraine he disagrees with.

 

[DairyQueen]

Sorry, but I've very much not kept up with this thread. If my questions have been answered/discussed, please point me to the place in the thread where... Thanks.

In terms of this build up of troops on the east Ukraine border, is it as big as the UN is saying? What is the likelihood that Russia will use these troops to invade Ukraine? How would 'the west' respond if they did?

Am I alone in thinking the coverage of military deployments is totally uninformative? I find there is never a good frame of reference (e.g. how much force is required to 'invade Ukraine'?).

 

[seventh bullet]

VP presents "Russophilia" and Russophobia as two concepts that share similarities and are both equally relevant to present-day Ukrainian politics. Fair cop, he never defined the term. But it seems to me that it is a term that is being reintroduced, in this context, to denigrate (in Western eyes) the economic and social interests of people in Ukraine he disagrees with.

How much of the present Russophobia is informed by its recent Cold War manifestation and often framed in civilisational terms? Because it, too, has a long history in the 'west.' Some Russians also, in a positive manner, set their country apart as a blend of both European and Asian, with some emphasis in recent years being placed on its Asian links and features.

 

[DairyQueen]

How much of the present Russophobia is informed by its recent Cold War manifestation and often framed in civilisational terms? Because it, too, has a long history in the 'west.' Some Russians also, in a positive manner, set their country apart as a blend of both European and Asian, with some emphasis in recent years being placed on its Asian links and features.

Russian civilisation is an interesting concept, but it is very difficult, at least for me, to determine if the portrayal of Russia in this way is the product of those of the West (Russia is some sort of mongrel of authoritarian (or 'Chinese-style capitalism') and American capitalism - I think even Zizek made this claim), those of the Russian government (Russia has this large sphere of legitimate interests), or the product of genuine movement and interaction of people.

Butchersapron posted a good article, which was reposted, on Yuschenko's tenure in office with regards to a Ukrainian nationalist government's attempts to create a new Ukrainian identity. But Russophobia may be an import into Ukraine from the West as much as it has been cultivated by Western Ukrainian politicians. There was some articles a few weeks ago discussing Polish, German and EU funding of political organisations in Ukraine, for example. They might have been reported on by Russians, but I do not doubt it.

 

[newbie]

So, Al Jazeera, the BBC & the Guardian are all mouthpieces of western imperialism? What info sources do you trust?

Why would you trust (belief, faith) any source without skepticism?

As a default position, the Guardian and BBC blow with the local wind. The G can be shoved a little off course if enough of their readership gets cross, but the BBC knows exactly where its bread is buttered. Both follow a news agenda riddled with automatic assumptions.

Personally I'm not sure about how AJ approaches geopolitics outside the area it's most interested in, but this map published today is pretty unambiguous that Crimea is currently part of Ukraine.

 

[seventh bullet]

Russian civilisation is an interesting concept, but it is very difficult, at least for me, to determine if the portrayal of Russia in this way is the product of those of the West (Russia is some sort of mongrel of authoritarian (or 'Chinese-style capitalism') and American capitalism - I think even Zizek made this claim), those of the Russian government (Russia has this large sphere of legitimate interests), or the product of genuine movement and interaction of people.

Butchersapron posted a good article, which was reposted, on Yuschenko's tenure in office with regards to a Ukrainian nationalist government's attempts to create a new Ukrainian identity. But Russophobia may be an import into Ukraine from the West as much as it has been cultivated by Western Ukrainian politicians. There was some articles a few weeks ago discussing Polish, German and EU funding of political organisations in Ukraine, for example. They might have been reported on by Russians, but I do not doubt it.

I'll post a bit later, going out soon.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, your entire concept of Russophilia - mythical or mystical - is ludicrous. Is Vladimir Putin a Russophile? Is a Russian? Is a Russian living in Ukraine? Is a Ukrainian living in Russia? Is a communist? Is a researcher who studies communism? Is a guy who reads a bit of Russian literature? Russophobia is a by-product of (perhaps extreme) Ukrainian nationalism, the equivalent, in this context, of Russian nationalism would presumably be anti-Ukrainian sentiment.

A russophhile, like a Russophobe, is someone who declares an affinity or an antipathy for a government, a people or a policy. If "Russophilia" is ludicrous, then so too must be "Russophobia", yet you're happy to run with the idea of Russophobia.
I wonder why that is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is (almost) entirely about territory. What you don't like is Russia annexing Crimea (I can find the quote - about 'nobbling pieces off Ukraine').

Thanks for telling me what I like.

By the way, it's "nibbling", and it doesn't refer specifically to Crimea. Nice try, though.

The problem is that if you truly let the people decide, the solution to Ukrainian problems could well be partition and fragmentation.

Fuck democracy! Democracy is dangerous! Let's partition Ukraine amongst the old powers!

The problem for me is that if Crimea declared independence without the Russian state's support but with a democratic mandate of people that lived there, do you really think no shots would have been fired?

I don't know, and neither do you. You're merely making assumptions based on your own prejudices.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Depending on what ViolentPanda is referring to, Russophilia has a particular historical meaning for old political movements in some parts of Ukraine.

For me it's always meant "alignment with the Russian political interest", with "Russian" signifying "the powers-that-be, and their interests" rather than the Russian peoples.