Ukraine

[seventh bullet]

If you actually read what I write you'll find I answered everything from your posts. I don't like repeating myself.
E2A plus I have much more important stuff to worry about at the moment than to spoon-feed you

You never did, or to others. I am just responding to your passive-aggressive behaviour anyway, related to the former. It helps pass the time in hospital while waiting to be operated on.

 

[Idris2002]

Is it funny because he's gay?

No dear, that's not what I meant. I was referring to the air of languid imperiosity with which Cadre Bullet addresses his foxy nemesis. There was no intention to cast nasturtiums on the sexuality of either Mr. Williams or Tovarish Bullet.

 

[Fuchs66]

You never did, or to others. I am just responding to your passive-aggressive behaviour anyway, related to the former. It helps pass the time in hospital while waiting to be operated on.

Good luck with the op I hope it goes well.

 

[goldenecitrone]

It was also the channel dancing to the tune of MI5 agent and infamous tea slurper Alexander Litivinko and multi billionaire theif Boris Berezovsky.

I wonder what became of those two Putin enemies

Trash like that have been taken off air in Venezuela as well and rightly so.

And now Lithuania.

 

[camouflage]

Kerry on demonstratiosions on Donetsk etc...

"These efforts are as ham-handed as they are transparent, frankly," he said. "And quite simply what we see from Russia is an illegal and illegitimate effort to destabilize a sovereign state and create a contrived crisis with paid operatives across an international boundary."

Boom. Didn't even blink. How'dya like that biatchiz. Do somethin, Go on, DO Somethin.

http://www.voanews.com/content/russia-warns-ukraine-of-civil-war-in-the-southeast/1888476.html

 

[camouflage]

In all seriousness... does anyone think Russia is doing it 'American-style' in South and East Ukraine? I could understand the Russians being happy to see Crimea return to the fold, but the rest of Ukraine? Anyone think they'd need to start any kind of National Endowment for Democracy type shenanigans... surely patience is enough. Let the West tangle with the mess they've made in Ukraine until it blows up in their face in an orgy of fascist ding-battery, fail and referendums. Maybe that depends on how bad it gets. It would probably suit the US for things to get proper The-Killing-Fields in Ukraine, just like it suited their purposes for the political system in Ukraine to break down from lack of negotiation in an atmosphere of tension, ever escalating direct action, drums and bonfires.

To be fair though, I don't think it matters how much Russia doesn't do to create crap in the Ukraine, they're going to get blamed for whatever series of regrettable incidents occur going forward. That's the genius of the American attack. Off the back of which the IMF lurks, hungry for plunder.

 

[pocketscience]

Kerry's flagrance is more a FUCK YOU message to the western public in general, as it is to Russia. It's certainly consistant with what every other goon in the power elite has to say here.
The blatant dishonest, hypocritical, idiotic and illogical nature of such statements just sends joe public away thinking "there must be something I don't get here", "he's so well informed with all that NSA Data, he must have a secret plan", "It's one of those reverse psycology tricks that'll leave Vlad shaking in his boots" etc... when, in actual fact, the reality is glaringly obvious: He's just another dishonest, hypocritical idiot that's struggling with logic and would never be considered for such a job if he wasn't from a privileged background.

 

[hipipol]

bullshit . Abby Martin is one of RTs main presenters . She angrily denounced Russias actions live on air . Not a single arsehole in the BBC denounced the EU cheering on a coup and riots by fascists in Kiev . They called it pro democracy protests. It was the overthrow of democracy .


they were every bit as bad when it came to Libya and Syria . The utter shite theyve spun on cue is unbelievable .

either youre a xenophobe or youre more discriminate in that its Russians you hate

Nope
No problem with Russians
Not keen on the Ultra Nationalists that seem to permeate Russias power structures
Mostly I have a problem with you to be honest
You seem to be rather biased against Ukranians

 

[redsquirrel]

It helps pass the time in hospital while waiting to be operated on.

Hope everything goes OK SB.

 

[Casually Red]

I saw a bit were one of those state department assholes was being quizzed on how they know Russia is behind it . The reply was basically because their freinds in the Kiev junta are keeping them up to date with events on the ground . She was then asked if tere were any other sources and replied basically no .
So it appears Kerry and co are basically an echo chamber for whatever the coup tell them is happening .

Over 70 anti coup protestors were arrested in Kharkov . All of them were Ukrainians , none of them bussed in from Russia , as the BBC have been telling us .

So anyways, theres been a coup . The government and constitution that the majority of Ukrainians have voted for has been overthrown by neo nazis. Despite huge numbers of Ukrainians speaking Russian its plainly unwelcome by the coup who want to take steps against it . Despite it being unpopular among large sections of Ukrianina society theyre going to join the EU . And NATO .

But..anyone protesting against this is a paid Russian stooge . Thats the Kiev line, the US line and the BBC line .

This probably isnt going to end well .

 

[Casually Red]

Nope
No problem with Russians
Not keen on the Ultra Nationalists that seem to permeate Russias power structures
Mostly I have a problem with you to be honest
You seem to be rather biased against Ukranians

Balls . Your blatant hypocrisy and xenophobia is pretty evident in your own words .

 

[8ball]

But..anyone protesting against this is a paid Russian stooge . Thats the Kiev line, the US line and the BBC line.

I watched Newsnight the other night and it didn't seem to be the BBC line then (though the bulletins are a lot more simplistic).

This probably isnt going to end well.

Yeah, not looking good.

 

[hipipol]

Balls . Your blatant hypocrisy and xenophobia is pretty evident in your own words .

Can only assume you have been having too much by the way mouth frothing excitement at finding new applications for for you Anti Fash tosh knee-jerk bollocks
Such a well reasoned analysis
Suddenly the scales have fallen from eyes!!!!!
Of course all Ukranians are Fascist
Of course I hate Russia and spend all my time spreading lies about the country and its people
Thank you CR for enlightening me!!! Hurragh
Armed with this new understanding I can become as binary as you

 

[camouflage]

I saw a bit were one of those state department assholes was being quizzed on how they know Russia is behind it . The reply was basically because their freinds in the Kiev junta are keeping them up to date with events on the ground . She was then asked if tere were any other sources and replied basically no .
So it appears Kerry and co are basically an echo chamber for whatever the coup tell them is happening .

Over 70 anti coup protestors were arrested in Kharkov . All of them were Ukrainians , none of them bussed in from Russia , as the BBC have been telling us .

So anyways, theres been a coup . The government and constitution that the majority of Ukrainians have voted for has been overthrown by neo nazis. Despite huge numbers of Ukrainians speaking Russian its plainly unwelcome by the coup who want to take steps against it . Despite it being unpopular among large sections of Ukrianina society theyre going to join the EU . And NATO .

But..anyone protesting against this is a paid Russian stooge . Thats the Kiev line, the US line and the BBC line .

This probably isnt going to end well .

And in light of Sey Hersh's report about the Chemical attack in Syria being linked with the Turks and their allies (as you, me and a whole load of others kept pointing out at the time; it's the Jihadists wot done it)... at the time John Frikkin Kerry was saying "We Know this, We Know that, We know all over the fucking place, We Know We Know We Know..." now he's flogging the same crap around Ukraine.

To be fair though, after Obamas speech in Brussels the other week... fuckit, looks like you're allowed to say any old bollocks in Washington these days, Nekkid Emperor style, who's going to call these people out on it, CNN? lol. If I worked in the USG right now, because that would mean I'm a cunt I'd be brazenly condemning the Chinese for nuking two Japanese cities 60 years ago for no good reason. Then I'd condemn the Sandinistas for the cynical terrorist war they raged against coffee-farmers and teachers in the hills of the Appalachians. Then I'd lash out at Russia again for the way they fucked over Iranian democracy in the 50's, and then decry Vietnam's merciless attacks on Guatamala. Then I'd declare that May is from now on November and that Day is that time when the stars come out in the sky. Hey, there's no end to the bare-faced screwball history you can come out with once the world has accepted Nekkid Emperor.

"Today we are at war with Oceana, we have always been at war with Oceana".

 

[Delroy Booth]

(as you, me and a whole load of others kept pointing out at the time; it's the Jihadists wot done it)...

And you were wrong. And Hersh is wrong. Moreover the Hersh story is on shaky grounds, which is a shame because there's actually some other stuff in the article he wrote which is probably right but will now be forever undermined by this aspect of the story. For instance he claims the Assad government had disabled the NSA/CIA eavesdropping capabilities, however as it happens that's not true and the US can still intercept communications within the Syrian army (for example in this story, which details an intercepted phonecall between two Syrian army officers with one questioning the other as to why they did it) and even Hersh himself in the same article goes onto refer to "chatter" that is routinely intercepted and stored on computer by the US intelligence services. A good editor would've asked Hersh to reconcile these two contradictary statements, and I'm suprised at the LRB because that's one of the best publications in the world an they wouldn't usually let something like that slip through.

Other such communication intercepts have been reported by a number of different governments and organisations, British Intelligence, French, German, etc Organisation of Islamic States, Arab League, each with their own differing interests and priorities, so unless you get into real tinfoil hat territory (they're all part of the conspiracy together...) it seems clear that Hersh is plain wrong on this point. Likewise that with this attack the consensus is that it was Assad, even the Iranians think Assad did it ffs....

Now, is it possible the rebels did the attack on Ghouta? Yes. Is it more likely to have been the rebels than the Syrian Army? No. Not least because it would strategically against their interests to poison and kill thousands of people in an area they control with nothing to gain whatsoever. This kind of stuff does terrible damage to Hersh's reputation as a journalist.

Now this is a Ukraine thread and I apologise for de-railing, but your childish and immature ramblings on here need to be taken to task. Grow up and learn something or if you can't do that go join the Infowars lot, I suspect you'd be more at home there with the mug punters who buy water filtration kits and who spend all day defending their precious bodily fluids from the international communist conspiracy.

 

[camouflage]

And you were wrong. And Hersh is wrong. Moreover the Hersh story is on shaky grounds, which is a shame because there's actually some other stuff in the article he wrote which is probably right but will now be forever undermined by this aspect of the story. For instance he claims the Assad government had disabled the NSA/CIA eavesdropping capabilities, however as it happens that's not true and the US can still intercept communications within the Syrian army (for example in this story, which details an intercepted phonecall between two Syrian army officers with one questioning the other as to why they did it) and even Hersh himself in the same article goes onto refer to "chatter" that is routinely intercepted and stored on computer by the US intelligence services. A good editor would've asked Hersh to reconcile these two contradictary statements, and I'm suprised at the LRB because that's one of the best publications in the world an they wouldn't usually let something like that slip through.

Other such communication intercepts have been reported by a number of different governments and organisations, British Intelligence, French, German, etc Organisation of Islamic States, Arab League, each with their own differing interests and priorities, so unless you get into real tinfoil hat territory (they're all part of the conspiracy together...) it seems clear that Hersh is plain wrong on this point. Likewise that with this attack the consensus is that it was Assad, even the Iranians think Assad did it ffs....

Now, is it possible the rebels did the attack on Ghouta? Yes. Is it more likely to have been the rebels than the Syrian Army? No. Not least because it would strategically against their interests to poison and kill thousands of people in an area they control with nothing to gain whatsoever. This kind of stuff does terrible damage to Hersh's reputation as a journalist.

Now this is a Ukraine thread and I apologise for de-railing, but your childish and immature ramblings on here need to be taken to task. Grow up and learn something or if you can't do that go join the Infowars lot, I suspect you'd be more at home there with the mug punters who buy water filtration kits and who spend all day defending their precious bodily fluids from the international communist conspiracy.

Nicely rounded off with a pointless ad hominem. Your presumptions of what I'm like as a person aside, where is your link to support your declaration that the Iranians agree with you? Never mind, save it for the Syria thread. I will say that I rate Sey Hersh as a journalist far more than I do you as a poster though.

Furthermore I can't help that the blatant truth-molesting cheek of the US State Department sends me running off into the wilderness babbling nonsense every now and then. I am not used to these kinds of large fat lumps of double-think being wheeled out in front of everyone like a body in a wheel barrow and just left there, and nobody saying anything. It's weird and totally bends my head obviously. Perhaps it's a form of panic, if Kerry can... well, say stuff... then the world really is just "people walking into rooms and saying things" as we fall forever through space, and history is just patterns pissed on a wall by power. I have a problem with accepting that.

 

[Delroy Booth]

It's on the Brown Moses blog, an interview with an un-named Iranian military official saying that privately the Iranian govt knows it was Assad that carried out the weapons attack. I'm not searching through it for you - you don't deserve it quite frankly.

If I'm wrong or if I misread the interview then fair enough, practically every other intelligence agency in the world now accepts it so it makes no real difference, so it doesn't change anything.

And it's not a pointless ad hominem, it's a purposeful and necessary ad hominem. Ad hominem is a perfectly valid thing to engage in when the person you're talking to is a fool.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's on the Brown Moses blog, an interview with an un-named Iranian military official saying that privately the Iranian govt knows it was Assad that carried out the weapons attack. I'm not searching through it for you - you don't deserve it quite frankly.

If I'm wrong or if I misread the interview then fair enough, practically every other intelligence agency in the world now accepts it so it makes no real difference, so it doesn't change anything.

And it's not a pointless ad hominem, it's a purposeful and necessary ad hominem. Ad hominem is a perfectly valid thing to engage in when the person you're talking to is a fool.

It's not even an ad hominem (in terms of logical fallacies) unless it's used instead of an actual argument. What camouflage is doing here is indulging in argumentum ad logicam , otherwise known as the fallacy fallacy:

This fallacy's use is staggeringly common during internet debates, where pseudo-intellectualism reigns supreme. A person will seek out and attack any logical fallacy you use and dismiss your argument out of hand, without ever addressing the proposition. Fairly often, you might spot someone who will not even bother explaining why the fallacy is appropriate in that context. Some of the possible causes of this phenomena include: they are being lazy and are just arguing by assertion, they are trying to distract from their argument and are poisoning the well, or they learnt a fancy new Latin phrase and want to use it regardless of its applicability. If they have incorrectly used the fallacy then they have committed the fallacy fallacy fallacy.

 

[Delroy Booth]

It's not even an ad hominem (in terms of logical fallacies) unless it's used instead of an actual argument. What camouflage is doing here is indulging in argumentum ad logicam , otherwise known as the fallacy fallacy:

When did these type of latinised rules of arguing become a thing? It seems to be a favourite of internet libertarians and Hitchensian Atheists.

What's wrong with a good old fashioned row?

 

[camouflage]

It's on the Brown Moses blog, an interview with an un-named Iranian military official saying that privately the Iranian govt knows it was Assad that carried out the weapons attack. I'm not searching through it for you - you don't deserve it quite frankly.

If I'm wrong or if I misread the interview then fair enough, practically every other intelligence agency in the world now accepts it so it makes no real difference, but it doesn't change anything.

And it's not a pointless ad hominem, it's a purposeful and necessary ad hominem. Ad hominem is a perfectly valid thing to engage in when the person you're talking to is a fool.

Unbeleivable.

Translation:

It's on some blog by some guy who said privately the Iranian government said THEY KNOW. Anyway I won't find it for you because you're not special enough to be in Delroy Booths Gang of Super Special Friends. And anyway if I'm wrong maybe I didn't read it properly. But fair enough all the spies and stuff in the world agrees with me anyway so it doesn't matter because I'm right.

And it's not pointless me saying shit at you, it's necessary for me to say shit at you because I don't like you.

Truly a rigorous and powerful mind you have there.



Anyhoo.... urban75thread's usual ego-fest bollocks aside, it's no surprise that the inevitable mess caused by a nations politics being theatrically cracked open with a baseball bat with a nail in it as has been done in the Ukraine, has spilled illegitimacy, radicalism and street protest all over the place. Nothin to do with US obviously.

 

[camouflage]

It's not even an ad hominem (in terms of logical fallacies) unless it's used instead of an actual argument. What camouflage is doing here is indulging in argumentum ad logicam , otherwise known as the fallacy fallacy:

pff, hardly. I noted Booths cusses at me and dismissed them as ultimately of no interest and asked him to back up a claim he'd made. So I wasn't indulging in any attack. I'm here to discuss the issues, not waste time and energy squabbling with the likes of Booth and chums, that ego-net flame warz crap don't interest me.

Say something about Kerry, or Ukraine, or something... maybe you could point out how Putin's like Hitler or whatever your message is.

 

[SpineyNorman]

When did these type of latinised rules of arguing become a thing? It seems to be a favourite of internet libertarians and Hitchensian Atheists.

What's wrong with a good old fashioned row?

It's at times like this that I look to Viz for answers, and find that they are in fact nothing new:

I think they used to be confined to university debating societies but since the advent of the internet they've escaped and begun to infect others.

 

[SpineyNorman]

pff, hardly. I noted Booths cusses at me and dismissed them as ultimately of no interest and asked him to back up a claim he'd made. So I wasn't indulging in any attack. I'm here to discuss the issues, not waste time and energy squabbling with the likes of Booth and chums, that ego-net flame warz crap don't interest me.

Say something about Kerry, or Ukraine, or something... maybe you could point out how Putin's like Hitler or whatever your message is.

I could point out that this entire post is one massive non-sequitur or something anal like that but frankly can't be arsed.

I could say I think Kerry's a massive wanker and a complete and utter hypocrite - but since this isn't news to anyone who's had their eyes open for the last 10 years I don't think it worthwhile.

I could say Putin is nothing like Hitler at all - either in terms of politics (other than a shared tendency towards authoritarianism, though even there he can't seriously be compared with everyone's least favourite Chaplin impersonator), personality of physique but since anyone who's actually had their eyes open for the last 10 years and has even the most modest grasp on history already knows that I won't bother.

I think the Ukraine appears to risk turning into a complete and utter fucking basketcase and 'the west' must take their share of the blame for this, especially for their uncritical support for, and playing down of, far right elements. But again, that's not - or didn't ought to be - really news to anyone on this thread so I didn't bother.

It's not good guys vs bad guys - this isn't a fucking cowboy film.

 

[camouflage]

I could point out that this entire post is one massive non-sequitur or something anal like that but frankly can't be arsed.

edited since you changed the post to say stuff worth reading. And no it's not a cowboy film, I'm not here claiming Russia are the 'good guys', but to be fair to them (imo) they didn't start this shit. The US has previous in terms of long range intervention in other peoples politics and war-mongering, and it's US action that has driven the breaking of the political situation in Ukraine (what I find so outrageous about Kerry saying stuff, is that he's described US involvement in Ukraine so succinctly, so he knows precisely what he's doing).

Russia was happy with the status quo, making out they're cartoon villains all up for land-grabs just confuses the situation for no reason.

 

[SpineyNorman]

ffs.

That's probably the most coherent thing you've said on this thread.

 

[camouflage]

That's probably the most coherent thing you've said on this thread.

and we're back.

 

[Delroy Booth]

That's probably the most coherent thing you've said on this thread.

Camouflage...

 

[SpineyNorman]

edited since you changed the post to say stuff worth reading. And no it's not a cowboy film, I'm not here claiming Russia are the 'good guys', but to be fair to them (imo) they didn't start this shit.

Who said they did? But I think in a process like this concepts like who 'started it' don't really apply. We're talking about social and political processes here - it's not like a fight in the playground at school.

The US has previous in terms of long range intervention in other peoples politics and war-mongering

True - but again, that's not news.

and it's US action that has driven the breaking of the political situation in Ukraine (what I find so outrageous about Kerry saying stuff, is that he's described US involvement in Ukraine with succinctly).

That's far too simplistic - and that's the reason you're getting stick. Nobody thinks the US/NATO are innocent or benevolent or anything like that. But there is/was a very real internal crisis within Ukraine - I'm not exactly an expert myself but I know this has been at least in part driven by the tendency of Putin and the Russian oligarchy taking advantage of the corruption of Ukrainian politicians.

Russia was happy with the status quo, making out they're cartoon villains all up for land-grabs just confuses the situation for no reason.

The only one painting a cartoon image here is you. What part of 'Russia' was happy with the status quo? There's certainly sections of the Russian elite - ones with influence - who are not happy with the status quo and want to extend the reaches of the Russian Federation - someone like seventh bullet will be able to say more about this than me (wishing you a full and quick recovery by the way mate) but they want some great Eurasian empire. You just can't speak of 'Russia' as if it's some homogenous entity.

Besides which - it's been obvious for a while that the status quo was socially and politically unsustainable so it doesn't really matter whether they were happy with it or not.

What we've got here are powerful states trying to turn events they don't control to their advantage. Russia no less than the USA. There's no cartoon goodies or baddies - just states doing what states do.

 

[Delroy Booth]

That's far too simplistic - and that's the reason you're getting stick. Nobody thinks the US/NATO are innocent or benevolent or anything like that. But there is/was a very real internal crisis within Ukraine - I'm not exactly an expert myself but I know this has been at least in part driven by the tendency of Putin and the Russian oligarchy taking advantage of the corruption of Ukrainian politicians.

Exactly. The west did not create this division already in Ukraine, just as the west did not create the split between Shia and Sunni in Syria. But we have used this division to our advantage just like Russia has.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm waiting for my latest orders from Mossad on what I should be posting next. Shilling's not just a job y'know - it's a vocation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I could point out that this entire post is one massive non-sequitur or something anal like that but frankly can't be arsed.

I could say I think Kerry's a massive wanker and a complete and utter hypocrite - but since this isn't news to anyone who's had their eyes open for the last 10 years I don't think it worthwhile.

I could say Putin is nothing like Hitler at all - either in terms of politics (other than a shared tendency towards authoritarianism, though even there he can't seriously be compared with everyone's least favourite Chaplin impersonator), personality of physique but since anyone who's actually had their eyes open for the last 10 years and has even the most modest grasp on history already knows that I won't bother.

I think the Ukraine appears to risk turning into a complete and utter fucking basketcase and 'the west' must take their share of the blame for this, especially for their uncritical support for, and playing down of, far right elements. But again, that's not - or didn't ought to be - really news to anyone on this thread so I didn't bother.

It's not good guys vs bad guys - this isn't a fucking cowboy film.

Ukraine, as with Poland (setting aside debates about their respective border issues and antipathies) has suffered from being "piggy in the middle" to a pair of power blocs, and this current crisis is all about whose piggy Ukraine becomes for the next however many years. As you say, it isn't about "good guys" and "bad guys", because there aren't any - there are just cunts, some of whom are more cuntish on certain issues than other. As it is, one bunch of cunts is trying to strangle Ukraine by nibbling off bits of the country, while the other bunch of cunts is trying to convince a nation with no history of democracy (and therefore less of an instinctive grasp of any possible benefits to democracy) that their way of doing democracy is suited to Ukraine, when it's only suited to the ruling classes in Ukraine - what might actually suit the Ukrainian people being irrelevant to the EU, Russia and to Ukraine's ruling classes.
This crisis has never been about doing what's best for the people of Ukraine, and anyone who believes that either Russia, the west or Ukraine's ruling classes have the interests of the Ukrainian people at heart is a fucking idiot. Arshinov and Makhno must be turning in their graves.