seventh bullet
sovietwave
Thanks. Not long been out of theatre. They removed a large abscess from my neck. The tramadol is rather pleasant.
Ukraine
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
Thanks. Not long been out of theatre. They removed a large abscess from my neck. The tramadol is rather pleasant.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
I can see where you are coming from VP and agree with the general point, but I think that Poland is a prime example of what Ukraine cannot become. Instead of trying to highlight the obvious shared history between Ukraine and Russia (not least the fact that many of the urban areas are just as 'Russian' as they are 'Ukrainian'), the idea Ukraine - a country of 45 million people - starts playing the oppressed 'freedom-loving' little guy scares the shit out of me. Poland has shown exactly what is wrong with this type of mentality; the government (and to some extent public opinion) is wildly reactionary. If Ukraine becomes anything like Poland, I am not sure any Russian president could tolerate the kind of anti-Russian rhetoric that passes for debate in Europe so close to the motherland.
I am just not convinced that is so unreasonable (albeit, they may have opened a kind of Pandora's box in the east). I think there is some truth in the claim that Russians do tend to be vilified and the Russian state as opposed to NATO/EU tend to judged on different terms. We can use the IMF as a personal lender, use it to force a host of countries to change domestic policy and the general public (both here and in the target country) literally has no idea what is going on. The same is happening with military action now.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
its not simply that theyve supported fascists , theyre merely an aggravating factor by this stage. Its that theyve completely wrecked an entire country which only stuck together on a tacit understanding there was a constitution that would be respected, as it respected the differences in the country . Thats gone now . Ukraine is in bits as a result .
In this case it is most definitely the west who are the bad guys. It wasnt Russia who smashed Ukraine . Russia asked all along for tripartite talks , it was completely dismissed . It repeatedly warned the west against interfering in Ukraine warning thered be very obvious repercussions, and were continually ignored . It wasnt they who launched a coup, it wasnt they who threw a constitution into the dustbin .
It should have been patently obvious one half of Ukraine, if not more, look towards Russia and not the EU or NATO . Thats been completely ignored throughout , largely because even those who pass themselves off as progressives cant believe anyone would want to do that . Which is basic russophobia and western supremacism. The west have refused to accept that as well and instead spent billions trying to put their puppets in charge no matter what . The result of that is a pyrrhic victory, a junta installed but a country were half or more of the people want nothing more to do with them and to persue their futures under different arrangements than what the EU and NATO have in mind .
Those regions are refusing to be dragged into the EU and NATO against their will by violent, illegitmate and undemocratic means . Thats being completely ignored here . Regardless of ones opinion of Putin and Russia the right of those regions to have their wishes respected should be supported . And an EU and NATO theft of an entire country by means of overthrowing its government should be roundly opposed . Regardless of a fascist presence or not .
Plainly theres those here who no matter what their protestations are end up as usal coming down on the side of NATO aggression . Just as theyve done in Syria and Libya, and made similar noises over Kosovo .
At least theyre consistent though .
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Casually Red - can you try and make the point in half the number of sentences?
EU/NATO are exploiting divisions in Ukraine as much as Russia. The point I was making is that Russia is still largely a marginalised, poor country recovering from shock therapy yet are still a convenient scapegoat even for America. The problem in Ukraine is as much a problem of how the 'international community' (the west) treat and view Russia, and 'Russian spheres of influence'. I don't mean that in some geopolitical sense, I mean that in a sense that large numbers of people in Ukraine (and other countries) have social, economic and cultural ties to people living in Russia which are often degraded in importance and belittled because these types of people are often poor.
EU/NATO are exploiting divisions in Ukraine as much as Russia. The point I was making is that Russia is still largely a marginalised, poor country recovering from shock therapy yet are still a convenient scapegoat even for America. The problem in Ukraine is as much a problem of how the 'international community' (the west) treat and view Russia, and 'Russian spheres of influence'. I don't mean that in some geopolitical sense, I mean that in a sense that large numbers of people in Ukraine (and other countries) have social, economic and cultural ties to people living in Russia which are often degraded in importance and belittled because these types of people are often poor.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
[QUOTE="SpineyNorman, post: 13054674, member: 45734"Who said they did? But I think in a process like this concepts like who 'started it' don't really apply. We're talking about social and political processes here - it's not like a fight in the playground at school.
who started it and why will determine the outcome. Who started it and why will explain why theres no compromising. Who started it and why will explain why theres a junta in Kiev that large swathes of the Ukrainian population dont accept have a shred of political legitimacy . And why they no longer want to be part of a Ukrainian state as things stand .
Basically what your saying is when debating this issue dont mention the facts which are central to it and just react to the events as if their happening in a political and military vaccuum . Who started it and why is what drives events and shapes them . And will continue to do so .
That's far too simplistic - and that's the reason you're getting stick. Nobody thinks the US/NATO are innocent or benevolent or anything like that. But there is/was a very real internal crisis within Ukraine - I'm not exactly an expert myself but I know this has been at least in part driven by the tendency of Putin and the Russian oligarchy taking advantage of the corruption of Ukrainian politicians.
Hes getting stick from arseholes, not just because they are arseholes but because he refuses to engage in Russia bashing as if they are somehow equally to blame here . The fact is they arent no matter how much a few egotists demand he toe their line. If you believe Russian oligarchs are to blame here then name them and explain how they are taking advantage of Ukrainian politicans to exacerbate this crisis, thats a very simple exercise . Back your points up .
The facts are undisputable . Russia asked continually for tripartite talks between Ukraine the EU and itself to try and arrive at a compromise . A necessary compromise because the Ukrainian people were so polarised between identification with the EU and identification with Russia . It was the refusal to entertain that by the western powers, engaged in a zero sum geo political game, which led directly to this crisis and which continues to fuel it .
Its aggressive EU and NATO expansionism which is to blame here, not simply a lack of benevolence as your suggesting. Russia didnt fuck about in Ukraine because its well aware theres a delicate ethnic balance and to be seen upsetting it could spark a conflagration . And such a conflagration would be highly detrimental to its interests. And is.
Russia does not benefit one bit from a broken and destabilised entity on its doorstep, it has nothing to gain from fuelling instability. The west most certainly does. A Ukraine in NATO and the EU in hock to the IMF for generations is first prize . A failed state tied to Russian interests wreaking constant instability on the Russian scene and on the Russian economy is almost as good .
The only one painting a cartoon image here is you. What part of 'Russia' was happy with the status quo? There's certainly sections of the Russian elite - ones with influence - who are not happy with the status quo and want to extend the reaches of the Russian Federation - someone like seventh bullet will be able to say more about this than me (wishing you a full and quick recovery by the way mate) but they want some great Eurasian empire. You just can't speak of 'Russia' as if it's some homogenous entity.
Besides which - it's been obvious for a while that the status quo was socially and politically unsustainable so it doesn't really matter whether they were happy with it or not.
What we've got here are powerful states trying to turn events they don't control to their advantage. Russia no less than the USA. There's no cartoon goodies or baddies - just states doing what states do.
Its not a Russian coup, its not a Russian junta . Russia accepted the election results no matter which faction was in power . The west didnt . Russia repeatedly proposed compromise and talks. The western powers refused . The western powers had invested over 5 billion in regime change and wanted it there and then . It wasnt Putin or Lavrov cheering on rioters , it was Baronness Ashton and John McCain . The Ukrainian people did not elect this shower of shit . They therefore have no legitimacy in large parts of Ukraine, among the Ukrainian people . Thats why theres a massive crisis .
It is that simple . To argue otherwise is to insist they do have legitmacy. Which entails recognising their ascension as legitmate, backing a western sponsored coup against the Ukrainian people.
who started it and why will determine the outcome. Who started it and why will explain why theres no compromising. Who started it and why will explain why theres a junta in Kiev that large swathes of the Ukrainian population dont accept have a shred of political legitimacy . And why they no longer want to be part of a Ukrainian state as things stand .
Basically what your saying is when debating this issue dont mention the facts which are central to it and just react to the events as if their happening in a political and military vaccuum . Who started it and why is what drives events and shapes them . And will continue to do so .
That's far too simplistic - and that's the reason you're getting stick. Nobody thinks the US/NATO are innocent or benevolent or anything like that. But there is/was a very real internal crisis within Ukraine - I'm not exactly an expert myself but I know this has been at least in part driven by the tendency of Putin and the Russian oligarchy taking advantage of the corruption of Ukrainian politicians.
Hes getting stick from arseholes, not just because they are arseholes but because he refuses to engage in Russia bashing as if they are somehow equally to blame here . The fact is they arent no matter how much a few egotists demand he toe their line. If you believe Russian oligarchs are to blame here then name them and explain how they are taking advantage of Ukrainian politicans to exacerbate this crisis, thats a very simple exercise . Back your points up .
The facts are undisputable . Russia asked continually for tripartite talks between Ukraine the EU and itself to try and arrive at a compromise . A necessary compromise because the Ukrainian people were so polarised between identification with the EU and identification with Russia . It was the refusal to entertain that by the western powers, engaged in a zero sum geo political game, which led directly to this crisis and which continues to fuel it .
Its aggressive EU and NATO expansionism which is to blame here, not simply a lack of benevolence as your suggesting. Russia didnt fuck about in Ukraine because its well aware theres a delicate ethnic balance and to be seen upsetting it could spark a conflagration . And such a conflagration would be highly detrimental to its interests. And is.
Russia does not benefit one bit from a broken and destabilised entity on its doorstep, it has nothing to gain from fuelling instability. The west most certainly does. A Ukraine in NATO and the EU in hock to the IMF for generations is first prize . A failed state tied to Russian interests wreaking constant instability on the Russian scene and on the Russian economy is almost as good .
The only one painting a cartoon image here is you. What part of 'Russia' was happy with the status quo? There's certainly sections of the Russian elite - ones with influence - who are not happy with the status quo and want to extend the reaches of the Russian Federation - someone like seventh bullet will be able to say more about this than me (wishing you a full and quick recovery by the way mate) but they want some great Eurasian empire. You just can't speak of 'Russia' as if it's some homogenous entity.
Besides which - it's been obvious for a while that the status quo was socially and politically unsustainable so it doesn't really matter whether they were happy with it or not.
What we've got here are powerful states trying to turn events they don't control to their advantage. Russia no less than the USA. There's no cartoon goodies or baddies - just states doing what states do.
Its not a Russian coup, its not a Russian junta . Russia accepted the election results no matter which faction was in power . The west didnt . Russia repeatedly proposed compromise and talks. The western powers refused . The western powers had invested over 5 billion in regime change and wanted it there and then . It wasnt Putin or Lavrov cheering on rioters , it was Baronness Ashton and John McCain . The Ukrainian people did not elect this shower of shit . They therefore have no legitimacy in large parts of Ukraine, among the Ukrainian people . Thats why theres a massive crisis .
It is that simple . To argue otherwise is to insist they do have legitmacy. Which entails recognising their ascension as legitmate, backing a western sponsored coup against the Ukrainian people.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
no I cant . If its too long for you to bother to read then just dont bother to read it .
You're really underestimating Russia. It has the world's largest gas reserves, the second largest coal reserves & the eighth largest oil reserves.
Ukraine crisis: sanctions won’t worry Vladimir Putin
By Liam Halligan (ex-Oxford, Channel4 News and IMF)
Telegraph, 04 Mar 2014
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
I take the point, but the issue is that when you see what happened in Ukraine, Russia would be suicidal to not beef up security rather than improving social programs. The crux of the problem we have with Russia is not the fact that it intervenes abroad, but that it is sovereign.
Sorry I'm a bit thick. I don't get what you mean by sovereign?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Sovereignty is the quality of having an independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory --> from wikipedia
I thought you were hinting at the mockery that is sovereign democracy.
Yeah Russia has a permanent seat on the UN security council and a large nuclear arsenal.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
I guess I was making a mockery of the fact that so does Britain and France, but I would probably not class them as sovereign in the same way as Russia.
Edit: I don't like UKIP - I realise how that may come across.
Since Suez they only do things with a USA nod. Apart from stopping another European war one of the points of the EU was to allow Germany, UK and France to act without USA approval.
Not happened yet. Though a lot has changed in the last few months.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
kiev is sending the armour in right accross eastern ukraine, saying these protests will be finshed within 48 hours. If theres former Crimean military among that lot theyll be looking some payback . Doubt theyll be showing the restraint their counterparts had.
saw footage earlier on RT were what looked to be a riotbus load of local cops turned up in Lugansk. Crowd surrounded the bus expecting an attack . Then one of the balaclavad cops stuck his mobile phone up to the window with a text message on it saying we are with you.
Bus just drove off shortly afterwards.
So it may well be the junta cant trust the local law and are sending in the heavies from western ukraine . Fash will definitely be among that lot . Russian foreign ministry is stating definitively theres 150 US Blackwater types sitting in Donetsk airport wearing the uniform of Sokol special forces.
Ive a feeling something pretty awful could happen here. Because thus crowd in Kiev are fucking idiots. Theyre still beating speakers up in the parliament right in front of cameras. They just dont give a fuck.
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ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
So, Putin should be allowed his own version of the Monroe Doctrine?
I think we both know where that'd lead!As for "playing the little guy", both Poland and Ukraine have suffered what some define as genocide in the last 100 years - Poland at the hands of the Nazis, and Ukraine at the hands of both the Soviets and the Nazis - in effect they are victims of a desire for freedoms. "Little guys" who got slapped around by the bullies. That tends to provoke reaction as often as rebellion.
Russophilia and Russophobia is present throughout the state, always has been. Using it as a reason for territorial impingement isn't really acceptable, however strong the anti-Russian rhetoric is. If Russophiles and Russian-speakers were under imminent threat of pogrom, then I might have some sympathy for Putin's perspective, but as it is, this is just shit stirred to enable expansionism. Russian imperialism has never gone away. it's always been there, for centuries.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Hope you don't get a tramadol hangover when they stop dosing you!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That's been obvious for more than 20 years.
Also obvious.
Demographically, Russophilia and Russophobia in Ukraine aren't confined to a single class. They spread cross the demographic spectrum. They're experiential as well as, in some senses, mythical, so "often poor" could be seen as an overstatement.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not really an under-estimation, as the Russian economy (and therefore the Russian people, the majority of whom are poor) doesn't benefit over-much from the massive resources that the country has. Unfortunately, that's the "way of the world" with robber-baron capitalism.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Too late VP. Yoda has already spoken.
It must be true then, especially if he got the news from Russia Today, eh?
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Eto Pravda!
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Some Russian speakers are poor in Moldova but I also came across quite a few pretty wealthy Russian speakers who were fans of Putin and looked down on people who spoke the native language. Working class Russian speakers do get discriminated against but it isnt as simple as that, and of course the party of the regions and the Moldovan communist party are overwhelmingly pro Russian parties who are not averse to racism, antisemitism and corrupt and dodgy practices themselves.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I started reading a bit about Transnistria recently, by far the most interesting and weirdest thing about it is their football! http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/s...gue.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&hp&pagewanted=all&
Has the coup attempt in eastern Ukraine failed?
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/4/eastern-ukraine-prorussianseparatistsdonetskdonbas.html
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Don't the rebels there include army and police defectors?
Either way, the game isn't up yet.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You mean you copied this bit off RT:
The PR is unraveling. Why didn't you pick a side whilst you still could? Instead of being caught behind lines?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
lol, I don't have to pick a side, there is no side which I want a part of here. I still don't think that everything is necessarily done with though, remember that Euromaiden only really picked up pace because of Yanukovych's original attacks on the pro-EU protesters.
edit: I'm not saying that there is going to be some sort of pro-Russian uprising or anything, or that that would be a good thing, those opinion polls from the Al Jazeera article are pretty stark. Just that there might be a more protracted struggle here.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You picked J. You picked the russian state's side. As you say, you didn't have to. But you did.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts...gery_shows_russian_troop_buildup_near_ukraine
This shows some satellite images of the Russian forces buildup on the borders of Ukraine.
Apologies if you can't get access, I think you need to sign up, but you can use twitter facebook or gmail to sign up if you want and if necessary I'll copy the satellite images and link them here directly. The most troubling is the large build up in the city of Belgorod, a mere 50 miles from Kharkiv where the anti-government protestors have taken over buildings. here's an article from Janes with some more details
http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues
This shouldn't be seen as proof of an invasion - i think the threat of an invasion coupled with the instability in the region is enough to satisfy Russia for now. Having such a large force on your borders would be enough to cause serious instability in any country, and I think Putin doesn't necessarily want to annex those eastern provinces, he wants them to be part of Ukraine and for them to be a source of dis-unity and civil strife that can undermine the current Kiev regime, and make them more malleable to his interests in the long term.
This shows some satellite images of the Russian forces buildup on the borders of Ukraine.
Apologies if you can't get access, I think you need to sign up, but you can use twitter facebook or gmail to sign up if you want and if necessary I'll copy the satellite images and link them here directly. The most troubling is the large build up in the city of Belgorod, a mere 50 miles from Kharkiv where the anti-government protestors have taken over buildings. here's an article from Janes with some more details
http://www.janes.com/article/36324/russian-buildup-around-belgorod-continues
This shouldn't be seen as proof of an invasion - i think the threat of an invasion coupled with the instability in the region is enough to satisfy Russia for now. Having such a large force on your borders would be enough to cause serious instability in any country, and I think Putin doesn't necessarily want to annex those eastern provinces, he wants them to be part of Ukraine and for them to be a source of dis-unity and civil strife that can undermine the current Kiev regime, and make them more malleable to his interests in the long term.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
So, Putin should be allowed his own version of the Monroe Doctrine?
As for "playing the little guy", both Poland and Ukraine have suffered what some define as genocide in the last 100 years - Poland at the hands of the Nazis, and Ukraine at the hands of both the Soviets and the Nazis - in effect they are victims of a desire for freedoms. "Little guys" who got slapped around by the bullies. That tends to provoke reaction as often as rebellion.
Russophilia and Russophobia is present throughout the state, always has been. Using it as a reason for territorial impingement isn't really acceptable, however strong the anti-Russian rhetoric is. If Russophiles and Russian-speakers were under imminent threat of pogrom, then I might have some sympathy for Putin's perspective, but as it is, this is just shit stirred to enable expansionism. Russian imperialism has never gone away. it's always been there, for centuries.
Right, and when granted even a little autonomy Poland (and for that matter, Ukraine) do not engage in a little "taking back what is rightfully ours"? I suppose the intermarium was just to "protect the Polish peoples"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War
Don't pretend a Polish state is somehow 'purer' than the Russian one. They would be more than happy to shaft over their neighbours as much as Russia. Face it, one of the reasons Russian-speakers are not under threat of a pogrom is (at least in part) because of Putin.
I realise you have some allegiance to Ukraine, but seriously... what next? Are you going to start discussing how Rostov-on-don is truly a part of greater Ukraine, oppressed by sneaky Russians?
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