Ukraine

[butchersapron]

I think you're right. The neo-cons have got their preferred Prime Minister and the USA will be able to recruit Ukraine into NATO. Russia has kept their Black Sea port. Merkel will be able to invite Ukraine into the EU eventually. The world will continue.

What makes you say 'The neo-cons have got their preferred Prime Minister'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What makes you say 'The neo-cons have got their preferred Prime Minister'?

The neo-cons' preferred leader is one who will allow the IMF to impose austerity, no?

 

[butchersapron]

I can see this happening, too. Plus the IMF will bail out the rest of Ukraine and insist on widespread cuts in public services and privatisation of state-owned resources.

Ukraine in NATO might be very touchy, though.

The current PM has been talking about re-nationalisations and in fact made his name through opposing privatisations. The IMF have through past deals tried to impose privatisations and the state has failed to impose them each and every time, backing off after widespread protests. Look at the history of the country since the rather similar 1994 crisis. A lot of the pressure for the privatisations that did go through was actually from the Russian state and capital.

 

[butchersapron]

The neo-cons' preferred leader is one who will allow the IMF to impose austerity, no?

See above, and neo-cons and the IMF are not the same thing.

 

[camouflage]

I think you're right. The neo-cons have got their preferred Prime Minister and the USA will be able to recruit Ukraine into NATO. Russia has kept their Black Sea port. Merkel will be able to invite Ukraine into the EU eventually. The world will continue.

I seriously doubt Russia will tolerate Nato in Ukraine though.

 

[Pickman's model]

i always thought russia should have applied for membership of the eu and nato, if only to chuck a spanner in the western imperialist works.

i fear putin's left it a bit late now though.

 

[camouflage]

See above, and neo-cons and the IMF are not the same thing.

The neo-con interest here is the atavistic focus on Russia as the Sovjets and lets bring back the good old Cold War etc, the neo-lib interest is in terms of the economics of social pillaging and corporate feudalism etc. That's how it seems to me.

Eta meant the above to littlebabyjesus

 

[butchersapron]

Neo-con influence here is the atavistic focus on Russia as the Sovjets, neo-lib interest is in terms of the economics of pillaging, corporate feudalism etc. That's how it seems to me.

So you mean expansive russian state neo-liberalism too then?

 

[camouflage]

So you mean expansive russian state neo-liberalism too then?

I meant the US strain, I've not seen a Russian version gobble down and shit out whole nations yet.

 

[1%er]

i always thought russia should have applied for membership of the eu and nato, if only to chuck a spanner in the western imperialist works.

i fear putin's left it a bit late now though.

If treated as an equal, Russia might eventually join NATO said Acting President Putin (in March 2000)

 

[butchersapron]

I meant the US strain, I've not seen a Russian version gobble down and shit out whole nations yet.

Yes of course. Your one eye gives you excellent vision.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If treated as an equal, Russia might eventually join NATO said Acting President Putin (in March 2000)

ie never.

NATO is an alliance of unequals: the US and everyone else.

 

[camouflage]

Yes of course. Your one eye gives you excellent vision.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Russia is some sort of benevolent state that would never be bad and howible to anyone... put it this way:

As I sat there in the pub, I saw one big nasty looking bloke with a bear tattoo sitting there enjoying a quiet drink and reading The Sun, when another big nasty looking bloke wearing a red-and-white striped hat marched up and glassed the first fella in the face. That's when this scrap started. I have merely been pointing out that the bloke in the stripey hat started it, that's all. Not recommending anyone in this thing as a good parent or a gentle lover or nothing.

 

[Casually Red]

JR - sorry, CR - I think we'll all chip in & let you spend the weekend here at our expense:

A panoramic view of Bluewater Shopping Centre at dusk - you can just make out CR entering the cornucopia after a hard day at the keyboard on the urban 'Ukraine' thread

CR, you need to chill out a lil, clear your head.

take yourself off to fuck you prick

 

[SpineyNorman]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Russia is some sort of benevolent state that would never be bad and howible to anyone... put it this way:

As I sat there in the pub, I saw one big nasty looking bloke with a bear tattoo sitting there enjoying a quiet drink and reading The Sun, when another big nasty looking bloke wearing a red-and-white striped hat marched up and glassed the first fella in the face. That's when this scrap started. I have merely been pointing out that the bloke in the stripey hat started it, that's all. Not recommending anyone in this thing as a good parent or a gentle lover or nothing.

That's one of the worst analogies I've ever seen. In what way did the US 'glass' Russia? EU and US Meddling has been in the Ukraine - and unless you think that's Russian territory (which would be a little bit imperialism) your bloke in a pub analysis is somewhat flawed.

 

[Casually Red]

for anyone who's still interested in playing spot the Russian amongst all the err... self defence auxillaries in the Crimea, someone on twitter (who's obviously never touched a woman in his life..), has matched up the few number plates in evidence to several Russian units - 76th Guards Airborne Division and 22nd Guards Spetznaz Brigade, both of the Southern Military District. he used photo's from Crimea and cross-referenced them with photos taken of Russian units on exercise in the last few years.

I dont doubt for a second many if not all those paramilitaries are Russian, and most likely Spetznaz . But they can easily get around that by saying they donated vehicles at the request of the Crimean parliament, which openly requested humanitarian and financial aid from Russia. Vehicles are merely non lethal assistance donated during a crisis after an urgent request , militia are Russian speaking Crimeans, Russian volunteers etc etc . They can plausibly deny with a straight face.

someone else noticed that many of the other self defence auxillaries seemed to have taken on the custom of Russian Naval Infantry of wearing a blue and white striped t-shirt under their combats.. honestly, some of the coincidences you see in life.

Many Ukrainian troops wear that as well , so more plausible deniality.

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

Dmitry Jorosz leader of Right Sector is now going to run for president in March announced on 1+1

In other news Anton Shekhovtsov is on Democracy Now. Part two's really interesting in which he talks about the dangerous expansionism of Putin's Eurasion movement and how if the West doesn't help Ukraine, a new nuclear arms race will commence.

 

[camouflage]

That's one of the worst analogies I've ever seen. In what way did the US 'glass' Russia? EU and US Meddling has been in the Ukraine - and unless you think that's Russian territory (which would be a little bit imperialism) your bloke in a pub analysis is somewhat flawed.

I agree it's a terrible analogy. Slaps own wrist and has a serious think about what I've done.

 

[camouflage]

Dmitry Jorosz leader of Right Sector is now going to run for president in March announced on 1+1

In other news Anton Shekhovtsov is on Democracy Now. Part two's really interesting in which he talks about the dangerous expansionism of Putin's Eurasion movement and how if the West doesn't help Ukraine, a new nuclear arms race will commence.

Democracy Now eh. Figures.

 

[Casually Red]

So why did you say the denial "prompted him to phone ashton"? - as the below (#2907, p.97) shows:


It's ok, we're all human - even you - we all mix things up sometimes. (You also meant to say, 'claims she told him'.)

what she told him prompted him to phone Ashton, you fucking arsehole. Now fuck off with your requests. Stick them up your hole.

It's ok, we're all human

are we ? you sound like a fucking robot

 

[ViolentPanda]

No question that having spent some time as an enlisted man will bring with it some knowledge of some aspects of some things military. On occasion, though, one runs across a Vet who holds forth on all aspects of military affairs past present and future, including strategy history logistics etc as if in possession of degrees from Sandhurst, Dartmouth, a stint at Andover and as a Regimental Sergeant Major; plus time spent as a member of the Parliamentary Defence Select Committee.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Strategy, history and logistics were staples of the British army's "Junior Leader" programme for more than 2 decades, Johnny. Just ask Mr.Bishie , who IIRC did the same programme about 10 years after I did.

 

[Casually Red]

Is that the tie-muncher?



I think it is... gosh, he's put on weight hasn't he.

who ate all the ties ?

 

[RosyFuture]

what she told him prompted him to phone Ashton, you fucking arsehole. Now fuck off with your requests. Stick them up your hole.



are we ? you sound like a fucking robot

she has denied to the western media what the Estonian Foreign Minister claims he told her . Which prompted him to phone ashton .

t2 comes after t1, not before: you need some more sleep - or take us up on our offer of a chill-out at Bluewater.

P.S. Efficient robots are logical - as efficient humans are.

P.P.S. What's the latest on Blackwater? Any coups planned? Assassinations? Bombings? What about frogmen with limpet mines, like something out of the 'Victor'?

 

[Casually Red]

Apols if it's addressed earlier in the thread, I read 30 pages, but still catching up on the rest.

Does anyone know where the pro Russian militias came from? Are they just ethnic Russians who happened to have guns lying around, were they an organised vigilante- or crime?- group before the current turmoil? Had they been formed/armed etc by the Russian state in preparation for this sort of unrest? Intrigued as they appear to be armed, organised and in some cases uniformed, and to be following some sort of command structure (impression based in news stories that mention them in passing and twitter/Facebook updates- again, all mention them in passing)

My guess is they were Spetznaz, originally . But soon theyll fade away to be replaced by defected Rusian Ukrainian troops, Berkut and other Crimeans once thats properly organised . In identical gear and with the vehicles handed to them. And when thats all sorted Russia will say told you so, they werent our guys.

The massive hype about 16000 troops and tanks rolling in was clearly a load of rubbish . All these small groups of paramilitaries have really done is tell the Ukrainian troops not to be silly boys and just stay in their bases . Preventing the Kiev crowd from using them to suppress the Crimean parliament . And station themselves in small groups outside bases, airport and the parliament. There doesnt even seem to be large numbers of them . There was barely 30 of them outside the Crimean parliament by the looks of things.
Their heaviest weapon seemed to be what they unofficially represented and the implied threat that went with that .

If Putin ever actually orders Russian troops in proper that will be pretty much unmistakable imho . It wont be subtle and therell be nothing implied. It will be absolutely fuck off in traditional Russian fashion , not a few sinister groups in balaclavas .

 

[Casually Red]

t2 comes after t1, not before: you need some more sleep - or take us up on our offer of a chill-out at Bluewater.

P.S. Efficient robots are logical - as efficient humans are.

P.P.S. What's the latest on Blackwater? Any coups planned? Assassinations? Bombings? What about frogmen with limpet mines, like something out of the 'Victor'?

Im sorry, you appear to be directing more requests in my direction as opposed to up your own anus. You might want to sort that out .

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Strategy, history and logistics were staples of the British army's "Junior Leader" programme for more than 2 decades, Johnny. Just ask Mr.Bishie , who IIRC did the same programme about 10 years after I did.

You remember correctly comrade!

 

[TomUS]

Pat Buchanan has a good point. Why should the US give a damn about who controls Crimea? It's so far away it's further east than Eastern Europe. Let the Europeans deal with it & the US mind it's own business.

 

[Casually Red]

I can see this happening, too. Plus the IMF will bail out the rest of Ukraine and insist on widespread cuts in public services and privatisation of state-owned resources.

Ukraine in NATO might be very touchy, though.

It will mean the United states missiles yet again right on Russias border, the noose around Russias neck being tightened . The United States went to the brink of nuclear war over Russian missiles stationed in Cuba, naval blockades and all sorts . Russias being quite restrained in comparison .

 

[RosyFuture]

The new website, dream deferred, had a good article on antifa in UA the other day (thanks to J Ed for the link).

However the site hasn't received universal acclaim, partly coz of one of its originators. In fact a protest poem has been penned for borrowing Langston Hughes' phrase:
http://livesrunning.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/the-dream-is-not-deferred/

 

[Casually Red]

I think you're right. The neo-cons have got their preferred Prime Minister and the USA will be able to recruit Ukraine into NATO. Russia has kept their Black Sea port. Merkel will be able to invite Ukraine into the EU eventually. The world will continue.

Ukraine..or whats left of it mightnt continue . Without the eastern industrial belt theyre fucked . Even with it , without Russian gas discounts for the energy that runs them those industries will collapse. As they will without a Russian market and tax waivers for their products, which will happen if they join the EU . Which the Junta are determined to do .
And the eastern regions seem to be intent on maximum seperation from Kiev . Because theyre going to be economicaly destroyed if Kievs agenda triumphs , as well as being subject to massive austerity alongside that ruination. And thats before all the fascist and ultra nationalist stuff theyll have to deal with . Kiev needs them, they certainly dont need Kiev or western Ukraine . Or the EU for that matter .