constructive comments always welcome.
Ukip - why are they gaining support?
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constructive comments always welcome.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
He's right though, it's shit, really shit even on it's own terms.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well don't do that.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I've posted a link to this LRB article about UKIP support in Thanet in the Clacton thread, but I think it might get over-looked as that thread naturally 'withers on the vine'...
In the piece James Meek poses this challenge about "the left's" possible response to concerns about immigration...
He goes on to offer this possible response...
Hmmm
In the piece James Meek poses this challenge about "the left's" possible response to concerns about immigration...
He goes on to offer this possible response...
Hmmm
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That last bit is pretty much why the first international was set up - the recognition by organised working class groups of how capital was working to undermine them and how to react to to this in way that benefited the class across borders. Now, it seems today the unorganised sections of the class can see it happening - but their response is being monopolised by the right, by capital. And the latter can do that because of the retreat from class by the organised left. And here, i want to make clear there are people across all left-wing parties working their arse off on a class basis in their communities and workplaces - this isn't a sectarian point. But we're not embedded collectively anymore (reason why - well there are many, i'm going to skip them for now) - we are there as people coming to communities with our pre-existing answers rather than as part of the debate that allows loads of answers to be produced. I know this is an old debate - one about left ghettos and so on - but we've not moved on in the decades we've been debating this have we?
Sorry, rambling post.
Sorry, rambling post.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
No, not a ramble...good post.
I think this has also been cast as the "where is the UKIP of the left?" debate.
Farage's 'ideological transvestism' continually resonates with sections of the working class because they can see how open migration within a federation with no federal minimum wage undermines their interests.
I suppose, if we had a class-conscious organised 'left', they'd have to decide whether to ape the nationalism of an exit from the EU or strive to harmonise p&c across the federal supra-national state.
I think this has also been cast as the "where is the UKIP of the left?" debate.
Farage's 'ideological transvestism' continually resonates with sections of the working class because they can see how open migration within a federation with no federal minimum wage undermines their interests.
I suppose, if we had a class-conscious organised 'left', they'd have to decide whether to ape the nationalism of an exit from the EU or strive to harmonise p&c across the federal supra-national state.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Not really sure if this is the right place for this, but Carswell has been talking about possible Labour defections-is that totally beyond the realms of possibility or could we see it?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
At MP level I'd be incredibly surprised, at councillor level possible but not on the same scale as Tory defections.
the way they keep going on about it is probably for one or both of two reasons.
1. Keep presenting themselves as the natural repository of the ex-Labour vote in the run up to the election.
2. It's true that one or two current or former Labour PPCs are talking to them, maybe an MP who is about to retire (Austin Mitchell for example). I don't believe there is a sitting MP who is intending to get re-elected next year who would see UKIP as a viable vehicle for that, and would be able to reconcile it with their beliefs.
1. Keep presenting themselves as the natural repository of the ex-Labour vote in the run up to the election.
2. It's true that one or two current or former Labour PPCs are talking to them, maybe an MP who is about to retire (Austin Mitchell for example). I don't believe there is a sitting MP who is intending to get re-elected next year who would see UKIP as a viable vehicle for that, and would be able to reconcile it with their beliefs.
Was he a serving MP when he joined UKIP?
I wouldn't say never but it's highly unlikely at the moment.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Your first point is very true in that they clearly feel they can tap in to working class fears/ anxieties .in the absence of a working class based response to those fears and anxieties the right wing response very often mops up. Very often the ' left ' response simply has no credibility as it doesn't relate to a lot of people's daily experiences ie no trade unions, no local working class organisation and a Labour Party that has no connection with the working class. If anything many people are driven to trying to make some money on their own initiative rather than as part of a collective as part time entrepreneurs whether it is through ebay or part time self employment.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Totally off topic but touching on the immigration issue: I am in Portugal at the moment and spent a couple of days looking at properties partly out of curiosity and partly because I have just taken redundancy. As with all these tours you end up meeting some ' independent ' legal adviser who explains the process of buying a property. He gave me some calculations of costs and when he mentioned a discount off the property tax I asked why that was. He said it was to incentivise the buying of property to stimulate the market. There were two tables he showed me one for the Portuguese and one for foreigners ( he kept describing me as a foreigner in the nicest possible way) . The foreigners discount was bigger than the one for the Portuguese. I asked him how the Portuguese felt about foreigners getting a better deal. He said it was irrelevant as the Portuguese can't afford the houses that the foreigners buy .
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
This is the response from supporters of the party of the class. To be honest I'd defect if I had to swallow shite like this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/13/working-class-labour-ukip-immigration-voters
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/13/working-class-labour-ukip-immigration-voters
What specifically is the UKIP policy on immigration? Do they even have one formulated yet? Do they even have their manifesto out?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
• Regain control of our borders and of immigration - only possible by leaving the EU.
• Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it.
• A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits.
• Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
From their website:
1. Regain control of our borders and of immigration - only possible by leaving the EU.
2. Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it.
3. A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits.
4. Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What their policy is and whether they have a manifesto out is irrelevant - it's probably the least useful question you can ask right now.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
No, he wasn't. He'd just left the BBC iirc. As soon as he joined UKIP, he made a leadership bid and was defeated. He then formed Veritas. What happened to them?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Yesterday's Torygraph was talking up Austin Mitchell's possible defection to the Kippers.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...s-Austin-Mitchell-the-next-Ukip-defector.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...s-Austin-Mitchell-the-next-Ukip-defector.html
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Mitchell in April:
If Grimsby is Nigel Farage's best chance, then UKIP have had it, says MP Austin Mitchell
If Grimsby is Nigel Farage's best chance, then UKIP have had it, says MP Austin Mitchell
austin 'that wasn't thievery it was an 'oversight' mitchell said:
I've found their 'local' (presumably British) manifesto, but they list no source for most of their claims. For instance "There has been a sharp rise in the number of EU migrants without a
job living in Britain to more than 600,000 - the equivalent of a city
the size of Glasgow."
Googling to try and find out just gets me links to the likes of the Telegraph. I don't know of any reliable source to verify or disprove this stuff so it's just all rhetoric.
They also say "According to the European Commission there was a 73% increase
in the number of job-seeking EU immigrants in our country."
The only source i can find that mentions this is http://www.definitive-is.com/2013/10/eu-study-migrants-benefit-tourism-issue/ whom i have never heard of and have no idea if they are another right wing think tank. They say
Quite a confused article, and to say Sajid Javid is in the 'liberal centre ground' is bizarre, the Economists view of the centre ground, maybe.
youngian
Well-Known Member
Mitchell can be a bit of a populist rentagob but economically he's never signed up to the neo-liberal Blair project and his anti-EU views come a desire to saw more nation planning with policies exchange controls, imports etc. If Mitchell joins a party that thinks we should leave the EU so we can have more Thatcherite economics, then this man has clearly taken leave of his senses.
This is Cameron's view of the 'liberal centre ground'; married gays for Thatcherism
This is Cameron's view of the 'liberal centre ground'; married gays for Thatcherism
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wtf?! You not knowing any source to prove or disprove their claim doesn't make it rhetoric. It's exactly finding a source to prove or disprove it that would show if it was rhetoric or not.
Anyway, great, we're now going to waste time talking about UKIP's policies.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Mitchell used to write articles for Scallywag back in the day.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
When they filmed tower block of commons - a program about Mps living in tower block in residents flat - he only agreed to do if if he could move himself and his wife (all the others had to do it individually) into a flat on his own with all mod cons installed - and one in an area he got to choose. He then spent the week getting drunk at official does and having his wife cook for him. Clueless clueless careerist scum coasting on that formerly huge labour majority for 35 years - one of the people and positions that has produced UKIP.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
He had his snout in the trough in the expenses scandal too didn't he?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
"Only 39% confirm to traditional old class divisions" lol. In other words they are wrong to do so and do so despite the efforts of the political commentariat. Probably like salad cream better than mayonnaise as well.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Once had the misfortune of sitting opposite him on a train during the miners strike . When I had a go at Kinnock and Labour he dismissed me as being a well meaning unrealist. I refused his offer of a tea. 'That'll show him' I thought.
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