PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
It is bollocks though.
UCU - Pensions and Pay Disputes
- Thread starter SpackleFrog
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
your question's shit.
i don't think any institution, be it in the public or private sector, gives refunds on the basis of the transaction being commercial.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
The justification for making students pay fees was that compared with others their future earnings would be higher.
Whether there is a future relationship between the two in reality is not the issue, it was the justification.
We all benefit from an educated society so it should be free for those it suits, but as we have the situation we have, should students get money back when the service doesn't deliver what they want and need?
2hats
Dust.
You probably need to reconsider your sources and/or question their mathematical ability. Looking at the timetable of a science course in a (supposed) top tier UK university it would be hard to argue that a student is ‘paying’ much more than £20 per lecture/tutorial - a basic calculation that doesn’t even account for the cost to the establishment of laboratory time, equipment and facilities, which would pull that price down even further (just on full time hours alone your claim makes no sense).
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that contact with lecturers doesn't matter?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so you're rowing back from your earlier position that 'the debate has been about fees relating to future earnings'. i don't think you know what you mean about this future relationship either, you're all over the shop.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
My 'claim' was what I had heard. The exact figure is clear!y debatable.
Are you suggesting that a student in their fees are paying for all the other stuff but the contact time with lecturers comes free?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
do you have a source for this claim? yes or no.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
2hats
Dust.
Can you read?
(*plonk* => don’t bother replying)
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Agreed, can we all just ignore the idiot.
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
The games continue.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I feel like Basil Fawlty, just wanting to get one dig in before the police drag the fraudster off...
Well Philosophical, don't you see yourself as some sort of socialist/trade unionist/opponent of neo-liberalism - as seen on the brexit thread you stunk up? How do you think giving students refunds will affect strikers? Won't management go in harder with regard to docking pay? How will it affect staff more generally in a targets driven consumerist environment? If you start giving refunds for cancelled lectures, don't you then have to start giving them for poor student module evaluations? Doesn't it encourage students who fail to get a 2(I) to make a claim? Who wins/loses from this process?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh what students should do at a time like this is take advantage of the extra reading time to do that bit of research they've been putting off. when i was doing my first degree, history, we were told we should be reading 40 hours a week or so. i don't imagine anyone did that amount of research, but in retrospect i wish i had.
PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
100 people on the picket today including heads of departments, the momentum is just building and building now!
ETA apparently one of the Deans joined the picket too.
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philosophical
Well-Known Member
If you can't accept that my enquiry was about the commercialisation of education, and how in that context it might look to students paying a lot of money and nothing happens in terms of contact time. If the students got refunds it might not mean docking extra pay (can there be a double docking of pay anyway?) but it might put pressure on the authorities to settle with the lecturers?
Otherwise what impact is the strike supposed to have if the authorities believe it makes no difference to the students? They even save money from the already docked pay don't they?
heinous seamus
Perfect in an empty room
Looks like an agreement of sorts may have been reached. UCU HEC meeting tomorrow to decide whether or not to approve it:
https://t.co/fbiRLgoqoN
(Deal getting widely panned on twitter).
https://t.co/fbiRLgoqoN
(Deal getting widely panned on twitter).
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aqua
made of cheese and gin
wow, rescheduling missed teaching as a priority? apart from the fact for most institutions running at maximum capacity for teaching in the timetable already that's impossible, that really is a fucking kick in the teeth from the union
someone on twitter has said if they agree to this it's the end of UCU and I don't think they're far wrong there
someone on twitter has said if they agree to this it's the end of UCU and I don't think they're far wrong there
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
That bit is very strange, like you say it's barely feasible. And goes against what the union has been saying about re-scheduling lectures.
PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
Yeah, that doesn't look like a good deal at all.
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
It reads more like face-saving pabulum to me. We are "encouraged" to reschedule missed lectures, but even so, disruption will still only be "minimised".
i reckon, based upon the increased membership and healthy levels of picketing that the UCU are in a very strong position. Now isnt the time to accept a poor deal, its the moment to increase the pressure on the employers and government by sticking together and extending the action. This dispute can be a decisive win for the union.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Certainly need something better than that.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
Anyone know what it is about the assumptions behind the forecast pension deficit that is fuelling the grievance?
PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
Open letter rejecting the proposals - please sign
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