Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[killer b]

It's an actual PC gone mad story ffs. I don't think I've ever seen one which didn't turn out to be bollocks (or at least much more complex than at first glance)

 

[Clair De Lune]

Given he is studying counselling and psychology, he should be well aware of not only the ethics but the risk of opening up trauma in his interviewees. Very hard to research if you don't have willing participants. Interesting though. I would like to read his research proposal to judge for myself where he was going with this/what his agenda was.

 

[redsquirrel]

The report is pretty crap and as killer b said smells fishy to me.

Radio 4 interview mentioned in is on Today (not listened to it yet) at the 1:43 mark

 

[redsquirrel]

Just listened to it now, and I have to say Wilchins argument is going down a dangerous path IMO.

But the interesting bit to me is whether the university itself has simply absorbed the notion that the research might be 'politically incorrect' (if that's was the actual wording used).

In the R4 report I linked to above he directly says that wording was used, could be lying but it would be bloody stupid to do so. Of course the full context isn't known but some of the statements from the university are very, very dodgy.

 

[Athos]

All they have is what the guy who's had his research bid turned down says. Smells a bit fishy to me.

It's an actual PC gone mad story ffs. I don't think I've ever seen one which didn't turn out to be bollocks (or at least much more complex than at first glance)

That's my suspicion.

 

[Wilf]

It's an actual PC gone mad story ffs. I don't think I've ever seen one which didn't turn out to be bollocks (or at least much more complex than at first glance)

To be fair, Christmas did get banned.

 

[captainmission]

Article here that gives some background as to where the psychotherapist is coming from.

Caspian, who has left the field of gender counselling, is prepared to be the whistleblower. “We are seeing,” he says, “what Jung called a ‘collective complex’.” He compares this mass hysteria about being trapped in the wrong body to the “glass delusion”, an odd medieval phenomenon where people believed they were made of glass and might shatter. Other clinicians mention the 1990s faux scandals of satanic ritual abuse and false memory syndrome. But unlike them, gender anxiety is supercharged by the internet.

That is not to say any experts I’ve met dispute the existence of gender dysphoria or the need for better treatment and social tolerance of trans people. But they feel what they call the “trans trend” needs analysing as a cultural phenomenon as much as a medical one. “St Paul’s School suddenly has a lot of non-binary girls,” said one child gender expert, “but when I was growing up, that’s where all the anorexics went.”

There is no blood test or pathogen to diagnose you as trans; it is solely a matter of interpreting human experience. With children, the dominant interpretation that is currently shouting down all others is that, say, a boy who enjoys “female” toys or clothes must really be a girl.

 

[Jonti]

Challenge

 

[Clair De Lune]

For balance- on the theme of trans desistence and the most well known and possibly inaccurate studies. More thorough and less biased studies now taking place. The pernicious junk science stalking trans kids

 

[Athos]

Article here that gives some background as to where the psychotherapist is coming from.

Not sure that takes us much further. But what would be conclusive is publication of the university's written decision, which, 'strangely' the press don't claim to have seen. I suspect they didn't formally give the reasons claimed. (Which, of course, doesn't mean that's not the real reason, just that it's not proven.)

 

[campanula]

I started to read the above article (thank you, Claire de Lune) but stopped in confusion after reading that the totals of childrens desisting transition did not stack up 'because they were not trans to begin with'...and at this point, my brain collapsed since it seems we are still awash in misconceptions, assumptions, misidentifications. Obviously, still early days and I am uncomfortably reminded of another syndrome which was (claimed) to be internet driven - the strange case of Morgellons. Presumably, a child does not wake up one day and insist that they have issues with gender assignment (my youngest went through a three year stage of dressing in female (?) clothing, playing only with other girls and showing a huge sensitivity towards the feel of various fabrics, styles of clothing, colours and scents...as well as expressing an alarming range of tics, grunts, twitches) but I admit to being adrift...and also needing to examine some of the varying and inconsistent demands made by children at various stages of their social, emotional and physical development.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I started to read the above article (thank you, Claire de Lune) but stopped in confusion after reading that the totals of childrens desisting transition did not stack up 'because they were not trans to begin with'...and at this point, my brain collapsed since it seems we are still awash in misconceptions, assumptions, misidentifications. Obviously, still early days and I am uncomfortably reminded of another syndrome which was (claimed) to be internet driven - the strange case of Morgellons. Presumably, a child does not wake up one day and insist that they have issues with gender assignment (my youngest went through a three year stage of dressing in female (?) clothing, playing only with other girls and showing a huge sensitivity towards the feel of various fabrics, styles of clothing, colours and scents...as well as expressing an alarming range of tics, grunts, twitches) but I admit to being adrift...and also needing to examine some of the varying and inconsistent demands made by children at various stages of their social, emotional and physical development.

The article goes into that. It's a problem faced surrounding many psychiatric disorders and the DSM, the 'bible' of many psychiatrists, whose diagnostic criteria can change drastically over time (or, in the case of homosexuality, disappear entirely). So the DSM has changed its diagnostic criteria, insisting that 'desire to be or insisting that you are the other sex' is essential to a diagnosis, but old studies were done using the old criteria. It's the old junk in-junk out argument.

 

[snadge]

There is also the autism angle.

The Link Between Autism and Trans Identity

Autism and (trans)gender: dysphoria, and gender fluidity in ASD

There is more info available with some reports also, some are pretty biased though.

There are a few other researchers that also have had their funding cut for the same type of research that Caspian was implementing.

Also follow the money, The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust

 

[bimble]

Its more likely that its a shit decision by someone at the university than that he had some underhand agenda, i reckon. Transgender Awareness Training | James Caspian Transgender Awareness

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is also the autism angle.

The Link Between Autism and Trans Identity

Autism and (trans)gender: dysphoria, and gender fluidity in ASD

There is more info available with some reports also, some are pretty biased though.

Much as I like Simon Baron-Cohen, there are big problems with his 'extreme male' model of autism. We're floundering with most of this stuff really, aren't we.

 

[snadge]

Much as I like Simon Baron-Cohen, there are big problems with his 'extreme male' model of autism. We're floundering with most of this stuff really, aren't we.

He has a point though, it is always the male autists that are the most destructive.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He has a point though, it is always the male autists that are the most destructive.

Always?

More males are destructive than females full stop. Just take a peek at the prison populations. Suicides. Homeless. Males fuck up more than females in lots of ways. We don't have good answers for why.

 

[snadge]

Always?

More males are destructive than females full stop. Just take a peek at the prison populations. Suicides. Homeless. Males fuck up more than females in lots of ways. We don't have good answers for why.

I agree, maybe all males are autistic in varying ways, I know I am, getting my nuts cut off helped that a bit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree, maybe all males are autistic in varying ways, I know I am, getting my nuts cut off helped that a bit.

I dunno. I'll dig out some links when I have time. I was attracted by Baron-Cohen's idea when I first read about it, but for various reasons I now don't think it really stands up. Its basic assumptions - that there exist 'male traits' and 'female traits' like systematising or empathising - are highly questionable and not really backed up by the data, in fact there is a growing body of data saying that this really isn't true.

 

[Red Cat]

Also follow the money, The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust

What do you mean by this?

 

[snadge]

What do you mean by this?

NHS budget is about £131 billion in 2017.

Getting the loose change is a huge amount in reality, I should have posted this link instead, Home - Clinic for Dissociative Studies

But the initial place does have an agenda also.

 

[Red Cat]

NHS budget is about £131 billion in 2017.

Getting the loose change is a huge amount in reality, I should have posted this link instead, Home - Clinic for Dissociative Studies

But the initial place does have an agenda also.

What is that agenda?

 

[snadge]

What is that agenda?

More funding. You seem to be very defensive about a trust which by nature is there to enrich people.

 

[bimble]

More funding. You seem to be very defensive about a trust which by nature is there to enrich people.

Are you suggesting that the Tavistock clinic in London had something to do with this man's research proposal being turned down because a study on people who want to reverse their transition would be bad for their funding? That sounds .. a bit far fetched.

 

[snadge]

Are you suggesting that the Tavistock clinic in London had something to do with this man's research proposal being turned down because a study on people who want to reverse their transition would be bad for their funding? That sounds .. a bit far fetched.

lol, no. They have a different agenda.

 

[Red Cat]

More funding. You seem to be very defensive about a trust which by nature is there to enrich people.

You weren't clear about that, because you seem to be insinuating something other than competition for funds.

 

[bimble]

What then was your point snadge? You mentioned other researchers having their funding cut who wanted to do similar studies and then you said to follow the money to the Tavistock.

 

[snadge]

What then was your point snadge? You mentioned other researchers having their funding cut who wanted to do similar studies and then you said to follow the money to the Tavistock.

I'm following up on some investigations atm, it looks like Tavistock are looking for some of that wedge, they are late to the show and seem to be taking an unique approach to the transgender gravy train, for such a small proportion of society, there seems to be an inordinate amount of wonga available.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm following up on some investigations atm, it looks like Tavistock are looking for some of that wedge, they are late to the show and seem to be taking an unique approach to the transgender gravy train, for such a small proportion of society, there seems to be an inordinate amount of wonga available.

I still don't understand what you're saying. Can you try and speak more plainly please.

The Tavistick has the oldest GI clinic in the country (for young people). What do you mean it's late to the show?

eta looks like the Tavistock has taken over the GI clinic in Hammersmith, is that what you're referring to? I'll read some more.

 

[Jonti]

Assigned female at birth is almost a bullshit acronym because the assigned can easily be taken to mean assessed and AFAB is a bullshit acronym.

The medically useful term is natal female which should come as no great surprise really.

edit: even though natal women is preferable