Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Pickman's model]

As ever it depends on what we mean by 'gender'. If we are talking about 'sex based social hierarchy' these certainly exist, but they don't mean male animals become female animals:

FEMALES DOMINATE HYENAS' HIERARCHY

If we are talking about male animals having an inner sense of maleness or femaleness, I have doubt.

yeh. can you not find an article from a peer-reviewed journal? you're full of fail, miranda

 

[Pickman's model]

That's far more pertinent than what PM was saying, seems to be arguing a position they don't understand themselves.

i'm not in fact arguing. i asked you to substantiate a claim you made about animals knowing no gender and the furthest we've got is the illiterate 'i have doubt': it's fucking pitiful.

 

[pengaleng]

I think you should clarify what 'peer reviewed' means

 

[Miranda Yardley]

yeh. can you not find an article from a peer-reviewed journal? you're full of fail, miranda

Daily Patterns of Activity in the Spotted Hyena | Journal of Mammalogy | Oxford Academic

 

[bimble]

That person is really confused.

 

[pengaleng]

That person is really confused.

aghahahahahahaaaaaaa this killed me, I gotta go and smoke, jeeeeeeesus D:

 

[Miranda Yardley]

i'm not in fact arguing. i asked you to substantiate a claim you made about animals knowing no gender and the furthest we've got is the illiterate 'i have doubt': it's fucking pitiful.

I substantiated it by linking to a piece which shows self-knowledge as one being something else than the self is a daft idea. Please try to engage brain before fingers. Thank you. Also, you seem unfamiliar with what transgenderists believe.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

That person is really confused.

It's hilarious.

 

[pengaleng]

well you still kept all yer traits despite the therapies

 

[Pickman's model]

Daily Patterns of Activity in the Spotted Hyena | Journal of Mammalogy | Oxford Academic

yeh. there's a lack of gender in that article, my friend. can i call you my friend, at least in jest?


do you see a mention of gender in the stated purpose of the study? i would be grateful if you could point it out.

 

[bimble]

What are you on about Mr Pick. Funny thing is the first of the hyena articles blithely used the word gender where they meant to say sex. Nobody knows what they are talking about anymore.

 

[Wilf]

Let's talk about oppression: please provide three examples related to women and 'trans women'. How do you differentiate between oppression and discrimination?

Well, go on, I'll nibble if not exactly bite. I could probably come up with working definitions of exploitation, oppression, discrimination and a range of other things, right through to lack of respect etc. All different, many if not all change their meaning over time and in different contexts. Definitions are important, as is language - full stop. But this debate seems to have got to the point where definitions aren't helping and are only being used to firm up positions and take another spin round the maypole. Again, I'd rather start with this debate as the problem itself - something that from my, admittedly inadequate, understanding sees the victories played out as lines added to or taken out of legislations, speakers de-invited and more and more exaggerated claims made about the logic of each side's position.

Again, I'm just about wise to the possibility of mansplaining, but I'll plough on: if you take something as central as sexual violence - which affect women, trans people (and indeed men) - what does any of this do to address sexual violence?

 

[Pickman's model]

I substantiated it by linking to a piece which shows self-knowledge as one being something else than the self is a daft idea.

read that back to yourself. now explain what this novel variation on endogenous growth theory actually means.

 

[pengaleng]

I hate people who cant use the terms sex and gender correctly, everyone is thick imo.

 

[Pickman's model]

What are you on about Mr Pick. Funny thing is the first of the hyena articles blithely used the word gender where they meant to say sex. Nobody knows what they are talking about anymore.

i know very well what i'm talking about. i am asking miranda to support a claim they made upthread about animals knowing no gender. and i must say they're doing a shit job.

 

[pengaleng]

Again, I'm just about wise to the possibility of mansplaining, but I'll plough on: if you take something as central as sexual violence - which affect women, trans people (and indeed men) - what does any of this do to address sexual violence?

I wouldnt worry about that, miranda LOVES mansplaining.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

yeh. there's a lack of gender in that article, my friend. can i call you my friend, at least in jest?

View attachment 124980
do you see a mention of gender in the stated purpose of the study? i would be grateful if you could point it out.

It is 'gender' in the sense of it being a social hierarchy. Apropos the 'inner sense of being male or female' which is central to the transgender claim, I have already given you this information, the piece by Nagel.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

What are you on about Mr Pick. Funny thing is the first of the hyena articles blithely used the word gender where they meant to say sex. Nobody knows what they are talking about anymore.

The conflation of sex and gender is a huge problem.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, go on, I'll nibble if not exactly bite. I could probably come up with working definitions of exploitation, oppression, discrimination and a range of other things, right through to lack of respect etc. All different, many if not all change their meaning over time and in different contexts. Definitions are important, as is language - full stop. But this debate seems to have got to the point where definitions aren't helping and are only being used to firm up positions and take another spin round the maypole. Again, I'd rather start with this debate as the problem itself - something that from my, admittedly inadequate, understanding sees the victories played out as lines added to or taken out of legislations, speakers de-invited and more and more exaggerated claims made about the logic of each side's position.

Again, I'm just about wise to the possibility of mansplaining, but I'll plough on: if you take something as central as sexual violence - which affect women, trans people (and indeed men) - what does any of this do to address sexual violence?

you're falling into miranda's trap - she doesn't in fact want to talk about oppression but to muddy the waters by going into the difference between oppression and discrimination.

 

[andysays]

Convention, or law. Using the terms synonymously in that context.

The two terms aren't synonymous, any more than the terms sex and gender are.
And underhand appeals to the authority of the law won't win you many arguments or many friends here, even among those of us who are gender critical and reject transideology

 

[Pickman's model]

It is 'gender' in the sense of it being a social hierarchy. Apropos the 'inner sense of being male or female' which is central to the transgender claim, I have already given you this information, the piece by Nagel.

yeh. which post is it in?

 

[Athos]

The parts about recognising sex differences and use of (dialectical materialist) class analysis certainly are. I'd be interested in what aspects you'd consider are metaphysical rather than materialist?

My point was to challange your apparant assertion that all radical feminism is materialist, which your response seems to acknowledge.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Definitions are important, as is language - full stop. But this debate seems to have got to the point where definitions aren't helping and are only being used to firm up positions and take another spin round the maypole.

The problem is, unless terms are defined people won't know what the other person means, and instead of debate we talk cross-purposes. When I ask for definitions, it's to clarify; we need to know what we are discussing! A great example itself is the word 'gender':

• feminists say gender is a collection of stereotypes used to enforce hierarchy of men over women
• transgenderists say gender is their inner sense of being male or female
• most other people for whatever reason thing sex and gender are synomyms!

Again, I'd rather start with this debate as the problem itself - something that from my, admittedly inadequate, understanding sees the victories played out as lines added to or taken out of legislations, speakers de-invited and more and more exaggerated claims made about the logic of each side's position.

There is exaggeration and false claims made on both sides of this debate.

Again, I'm just about wise to the possibility of mansplaining, but I'll plough on: if you take something as central as sexual violence - which affect women, trans people (and indeed men) - what does any of this do to address sexual violence?

This is a complex question where, for example, acts of violence by trans males are recorded and reported as acts by females, where such crimes by the latter are small enough in number that the addition of the former distorts the reported numbers.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

yeh. which post is it in?

View attachment 124981

See your own post #5024

 

[pengaleng]

you contribute to the 'problems' if you really actually felt like this then you'd stop presenting yourself as a woman if you werent already dead inside.

actually you might find more people willing to listen to yer shit.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is a complex question where, for example, acts of violence by trans males are recorded and reported as acts by females, where such crimes by the latter are small enough in number that the addition of the former distorts the reported numbers.

yeh. could you stop conflating sex and gender pls.

 

[Pickman's model]

strangely nagel doesn't mention gender

 

[Miranda Yardley]

My point was to challange your apparant assertion that all radical feminism is materialist, which your response seems to acknowledge.

Radical feminism is a materialist ideology.

Please go ahead and show me where it's not materialist or metaphysical. (I know some talk about 'earth spirit' and 'women's energy', there are more personal interpretations of separate and unrelated spiritual beliefs).

 

[Miranda Yardley]

yeh. could you stop conflating sex and gender pls.

Have never done that.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

strangely nagel doesn't mention gender

I used that piece to support the argument made.