Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

Just put him on ignore. It's what half of urban does. The other half spend their time going down increasingly pointless rabbit holes of pedantry with him that require considerable scrolling past on the part of the ones sensible enough to be in the first half. He's not called "Pickman" for nothing.

Yeah I get that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It is pertinent to the conversation, it looks at Stoller's definitions of 'gender identity' and references trans individuals.

I've had a bit of a skim of that, and it considers Stoller's first notion that gender identity starts with gender assignment and then builds through myriad interactions with parents. The article likes that idea. It then considers Stoller's idea of symbiosis with the mother and 'protofeminity', which sounds like utter bollocks to me and the article also does not like.

The article references ideas of a 'male brain' :

First, the case of a boy's sex reassignment, which was central in establishing the view that sex ascription at birth and subsequent
rearing are basic to gender identity, has recently been reexamined in the context of the boy's later development. This case has been widely
reported as undercutting the view of gender identity's social origins and supporting the conception of a "male brain"—the idea that gender
identity is rooted in the brain and is independent of environmental factors. An examination of available data suggests that these new data
offer no support for either the biological or the social view.

Here, I think we reach an old problem - trying to disentangle nature from nurture, turning it into an either/or question, which is not possible as nurture acts on nature.

I might have missed the important bit in my skim - what is it in there that you think relates to this discussion?

 

[Pickman's model]

He called me a 'stupid stupid cunt'. I note you think it's okay for language like that to be used against transsexuals you disagree with.

yeh it's always much better to medicalise things instead.

i called you a stupid stupid cunt in a moment of frustration at your inability to comprehend a very simple point. i have called natal men and women cunts for less. what makes you think you're superior to other people?

 

[8ball]

He called me a 'stupid stupid cunt'. I note you think it's okay for language like that to be used against transsexuals you disagree with.

The urbiverse has its own rules.
Another one of them is that you are not allowed to openly state that the urbiverse has its own rules.

 

[kabbes]

It's not a relation of total equivalence.
If it was, not only would all transwomen be women, but all women would be transwomen.

Alright, a non-surjective, injective relation then.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'd rather be called a cunt than be told my identity is a lie.

If your best friend turned to you and said he was a tiger, would you believe him?

I guess you're unaware 'cunt' is an incredibly misogynistic word.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He called me a 'stupid stupid cunt'. I note you think it's okay for language like that to be used against transsexuals you disagree with.

Everyone gets called a cunt on here, fwiw.

 

[MochaSoul]

Whilst it's incumbent on me to treat them courteously, there can be no moral imperative for me to adopt their beliefs. That way lies madness!

Wait until "misgendering" becomes part of a claim of discrimination lawsuit. We'll fully be in Oceania.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Alright, a non-surjective, injective relation then.

Music to my ears.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Transgender culture argues that 'gender identity' is innate and this is foundational to many claims made.

A culture is an ethereal concept and so it cannot make an argument.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Everyone gets called a cunt on here, fwiw.

There's some irony here that calling a transsexual a 'cunt' is acceptable but referring to a man who identifies as a woman with masculine pronouns is an act of hate. The priorities here are all topsy-turvy.

 

[kabbes]

The priorities here are all topsy-turvy.

To be fair, you've come to that conclusion slower than some but faster than most.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

A culture is an ethereal concept and so it cannot make an argument.

Transgenderists argue gender identity is innate. Are you denying them this?

 

[SpookyFrank]

If your best friend turned to you and said he was a tiger, would you believe him?

Can't tell if you're conflating trans folk with outright bulshitters or with the clinically insane but either way, not a great look.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

To be fair, you've come to that conclusion slower than some but faster than most.

I'm still dizzy from your using the words 'surjective' and 'injective'.

 

[kabbes]

I'm still dizzy from your using the words 'surjective' and 'injective'.

You can take the man out of the maths, but you'll never take the maths out of the man.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Transgenderists argue gender identity is innate. Are you denying them this?

Transgenderists? I lost interest after those first few EPs they did. They've gone a bit too commercial now.

 

[Pickman's model]

If your best friend turned to you and said he was a tiger, would you believe him?

I guess you're unaware 'cunt' is an incredibly misogynistic word.

do you know, no one's ever suggested that here before

https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...-make-you-a-misogynist-this-is-a-poll.272872/

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Can't tell if you're conflating trans folk with outright bulshitters or with the clinically insane but either way, not a great look.

Not really, it amounts to the same thing. Do you think Rachel Dolezal has a legitimate claim to being transracial? Why? How is this different from transgender?

Rachel Dolezal’s pick-your-race policy works brilliantly – as long as you’re white | Claire Hynes

 

[Pickman's model]

Transgenderists? I lost interest after those first few EPs they did. They've gone a bit too commercial now.

supported ruddy yurts at the pied bull in november '88

 

[8ball]

Alright, a non-surjective, injective relation then.

We must be rigorous!!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You can take the man out of the maths, but you'll never take the maths out of the man.

I love maths, it's my hobby.

 

[bimble]

Alright, a non-surjective, injective relation then.

This is hours of googling and a bit scary. Any chance of a layperson's translation of how these ideas map onto what you're saying about how the two sets (?) of women & transwomen relate to eachother?

 

[Pickman's model]

This is hours of googling and a bit scary. Any chance of a layperson's translation of how these ideas map onto what you're saying about how the two sets (?) of women & transwomen relate to eachother?

no.

 

[kabbes]

I love maths, it's my hobby.

Ironically, my hobby is social psychology.

 

[LDC]

Edited, can't be bothered.

 

[elbows]

supported ruddy yurts at the pied bull in november '88

Not been the same since the drummer left to form Bob Slob and the Knob Sobs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Edited, can't be bothered.

pity, good question

 

[kabbes]

This is hours of googling and a bit scary. Any chance of a layperson's translation of how these ideas map onto what you're saying about how the two sets (?) of women & transwomen relate to eachother?

Imagine two sets of things, set A and set B.
An injection means that everything in set A can be associated with something in set B. (But some things in set B might not have anything from set A that relate to it, so it is known as "many-to-one").
A surjection means that for everything in set B, there is something in set A that can be related to it (but not necessarily uniquely, so it is known as "one-to-many").

If all transwomen are women then the set of features that define transwomen must all be associated with a feature that define women, which means that transwomen:->women is an injection.
If not all women are transwomen, however, then there must be some features that define women that are not shared by transwomen, which means that transwomen:->women is not a surjection.

My original comment about equivalence was based around the use of the word "are" in the motto "transwomen are women". To say something "is" something else is normally interpreted as an equivalence (i.e. each element of one set maps precisely to one member of the other set -- also known as a bijection). In this strictly mathematical interpretation of "is", you could not say "Set A is Set B" unless this was so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Transgenderists argue gender identity is innate. Are you denying them this?

Isn't the most honest answer that we don't have all the answers regarding gender identity and how it develops? A long time ago on a different thread, I said as much to someone who was arguing that gender is innate, and that imo it was important that they should not hang their sense of themselves and their potential rights on that particular hook.